Guard Dogs

[centrarchid]

Cost effectiveness implies how much does the protection cost. Initial cost of dogs can vary wildly but the maintenance cost, especially when considering the two years to full protection usually exceeds purchase cost of dog. We have several LGD's here which includes Great Pyrenees, Ackbash (my favorite owing to speed and heat tolerance), Maramia x Great Pyrenees cross, and Old English Sheep Dog x Great Pyrenees cross. Those dogs are tasked with sheep and goats but operating cost are the same as they would be for poultry. The dogs and herds they protect are confined much the same way many of my birds are confined. The confinement alone excludes bigger threats such as dogs. The reality with the confinement is the dogs indicate larger problems are outside by barking and only deal directly with smaller threats like coyotes on down with respect to size and ability as they are the ones able to get past the fencing. The fence still provides the bulk of the protection. With coyotes on down as bad guys you do not have to have 90+ lb dog. That 90+ lb dog costs a lot money especially if it is valued only for protecting stock and that flock is valued at less than a years worth of dog feed. Smaller dogs and those better suited for warmer climates can do just fine when aided by a fence. My dogs also not confined but they have fencing they can navigate that impedes other dogs and even ground predators. My hunting breed dogs used as poultry guardians are relatively small, smart, fast and have value beyond guarding my flocks which spread out cost between their uses.



Territoriality need not involve behavior towards humans. It does most of time but need not. Not all classic LGD's are people friendly even when they otherwise perform in a stellar fashion with stock animals.

 

[MrsBachbach]

Cost effectiveness implies how much does the protection cost. Initial cost of dogs can vary wildly but the maintenance cost, especially when considering the two years to full protection usually exceeds purchase cost of dog. We have several LGD's here which includes Great Pyrenees, Ackbash (my favorite owing to speed and heat tolerance), Maramia x Great Pyrenees cross, and Old English Sheep Dog x Great Pyrenees cross. Those dogs are tasked with sheep and goats but operating cost are the same as they would be for poultry. The dogs and herds they protect are confined much the same way many of my birds are confined. The confinement alone excludes bigger threats such as dogs. The reality with the confinement is the dogs indicate larger problems are outside by barking and only deal directly with smaller threats like coyotes on down with respect to size and ability as they are the ones able to get past the fencing. The fence still provides the bulk of the protection. With coyotes on down as bad guys you do not have to have 90+ lb dog. That 90+ lb dog costs a lot money especially if it is valued only for protecting stock and that flock is valued at less than a years worth of dog feed. Smaller dogs and those better suited for warmer climates can do just fine when aided by a fence. My dogs also not confined but they have fencing they can navigate that impedes other dogs and even ground predators. My hunting breed dogs used as poultry guardians are relatively small, smart, fast and have value beyond guarding my flocks which spread out cost between their uses.



Territoriality need not involve behavior towards humans. It does most of time but need not. Not all classic LGD's are people friendly even when they otherwise perform in a stellar fashion with stock animals.

Which is as I said. Depends on how much personal value you put in your flock including your time and effort in breeding over the years. Or just your personal feelings regarding your animals. Do you want to keep them confined or enjoy the benefits of free ranging. Most people don't keep poultry to make money. It's their hobby or their desire to raise their own meat or eggs. Any dog is going to cost money. I think most people are intelligent enough to realize that. You can put a price on it if you want, but it's cheaper just to buy your meat or eggs regardless. So, I assume most people, especially the non commercial poultry keepers, already know this.
Oh, I am aware of that which is exactly why I choose the breed I did. Much less chance of that happening. She will bark at people she doesn't know, but she doesn't charge them. And she will submit to other people handling her.

 

[centrarchid]

How many years have you used dogs with poultry and how many dogs?

For an analogy, this is important for understanding how one does not have to have the biggest tractor out there to cultivate a small field. Exceptions to that have more to do with wanting the biggest tractor around or simply being into the brand name.

 

[MrsBachbach]

How many years have you used dogs with poultry and how many dogs?

For an analogy, this is important for understanding how one does not have to have the biggest tractor out there to cultivate a small field. Exceptions to that have more to do with wanting the biggest tractor around or simply being into the brand name.

It has nothing to do with the size of the dog. It has to do with what it was bred to do. I didn't want to spend an extra ordinary amount of time training a dog to do something it was not bred to do. My choice also doesn't require any more food than a dog of smaller size and more energy. I didn't want an overly aggressive breed either or one that could not have that protective instinct trained into it.
First you argued LGDs will not protect chickens. Mine and other's here on this forum do. Any dog can fail to do what is expected of it. Chances are higher if you go with a breed not developed for it. It's like taking your toy dog and trying to make a hunting dog of it. The potential for failure is higher. Then you argue it's not cost effective for a back yard flock and you seem to be picking on LGDs especially. They really aren't anymore expensive than any other dog if your time is money, and the risk of them killing your flock while in training is less than trying to train a bird hunting dog to watch your chickens. Their vet bills are the same, their feed bills are also the same unless you are going to try to train a toy poodle. Then the difference would be feed. And, they can be found for comparable costs. When I suggest a breed for watching someones flock, I am telling them of my experience and others that I know of. I also do not assume they haven't considered costs. Because lets face it. If one was worried about how much keeping their chickens cost, they likely would just buy out of the store.
You also make the assumption that everybody is as experienced as you in taking a hunting dog and turning it into a guard dog. I'm not going to argue with you that it can't be done. I'm just going to say that everybody doesn't have the time or experience to get it done.
Look, I've been round and round with you before on this and I'm not doing it again. Everytime someone posts suggestions for a guard dog for their flock, you come in and pooh pooh peoples opinions and suggestions, especially mine. I don't go around arguing with people who use a rott or cattle dog for their flock and tell them how much of a waste of money their dogs are and they should have built a fence instead. Their dog works and that is great! I also don't jump on my high horse and start questioning their "experience".
People will make their own choice and that's fine. Btw, I'm no more into brand names than you are. I took a breed made for protecting sheep or goats and used it to protect bird flocks. You took a breed used for hunting birds and use it to protect birds. You likely had the harder job. Kudo's to you.
I stick with my assertions regarding LGDs and really have nothing more to say.

 

[centrarchid]

It has nothing to do with the size of the dog. It has to do with what it was bred to do. I didn't want to spend an extra ordinary amount of time training a dog to do something it was not bred to do. My choice also doesn't require any more food than a dog of smaller size and more energy. I didn't want an overly aggressive breed either or one that could not have that protective instinct trained into it.
First you argued LGDs will not protect chickens. Mine and other's here on this forum do. Any dog can fail to do what is expected of it. Chances are higher if you go with a breed not developed for it. It's like taking your toy dog and trying to make a hunting dog of it. The potential for failure is higher. Then you argue it's not cost effective for a back yard flock and you seem to be picking on LGDs especially. They really aren't anymore expensive than any other dog if your time is money, and the risk of them killing your flock while in training is less than trying to train a bird hunting dog to watch your chickens. Their vet bills are the same, their feed bills are also the same unless you are going to try to train a toy poodle. Then the difference would be feed. And, they can be found for comparable costs. When I suggest a breed for watching someones flock, I am telling them of my experience and others that I know of. I also do not assume they haven't considered costs. Because lets face it. If one was worried about how much keeping their chickens cost, they likely would just buy out of the store.
You also make the assumption that everybody is as experienced as you in taking a hunting dog and turning it into a guard dog. I'm not going to argue with you that it can't be done. I'm just going to say that everybody doesn't have the time or experience to get it done.
Look, I've been round and round with you before on this and I'm not doing it again. Everytime someone posts suggestions for a guard dog for their flock, you come in and pooh pooh peoples opinions and suggestions, especially mine. I don't go around arguing with people who use a rott or cattle dog for their flock and tell them how much of a waste of money their dogs are and they should have built a fence instead. Their dog works and that is great! I also don't jump on my high horse and start questioning their "experience".
People will make their own choice and that's fine. Btw, I'm no more into brand names than you are. I took a breed made for protecting sheep or goats and used it to protect bird flocks. You took a breed used for hunting birds and use it to protect birds. You likely had the harder job. Kudo's to you.
I stick with my assertions regarding LGDs and really have nothing more to say.

First bold point. I never said it ever. That indicates you have a preconceived notion about what someone else has to say and blatantly ignore the facts before you.

Second bold point. Bred to hunt small game and used as general farm dog in country of origin. Bird use only is a New World situation.

Most dogs are still omnipotent when it comes to work around livestock and even LGD's can be problematic in the hands pf parties lacking experience or proper preparation. I have waded your waters with respect to experience but you have not done mine.

 

[TalkALittle]

LGD's are not bred for protecting chickens therefore instincti bred into such dogs does not apply with chickens.

First bold point. I never said it ever.

I've been silently following along until now.

Centrarchid, I would just like to point out that it sure sounds like you did say that you felt that LGDs wouldn't protect chickens.

MrsBachbach, I think you are spot on with regards to your knowledge of, attitude toward raising/training your dogs, and the realistic expectations you have based on breed tendencies.

 

[centrarchid]

I've been silently following along until now.

Centrarchid, I would just like to point out that it sure sounds like you did say that you felt that LGDs wouldn't protect chickens.

MrsBachbach, I think you are spot on with regards to your knowledge of, attitude toward raising/training your dogs, and the realistic expectations you have based on breed tendencies.

It is time to stop the acts of stupid. I have never said LGD's are not so capable in all the years I have been on this site. Never, not even once, even with what you site above. The assertion has always been other dogs are also suitable and that other components play into protecting the birds. It is not just about the dogs. More dimensions. One of these days you and so many others need to pull your heads out of your backsides and recognize when someone actually has experience with the kinds of dogs you tout exclusively and with other breeds as well and can give a balanced take.

Now write me up.

 

[TalkALittle]

One of these days you and so many others need to pull your heads out of your backsides and recognize when someone actually has experience with the kinds of dogs you tout exclusively and with other breeds as well and can give a balanced take.

I merely pointed out that, based upon the words that you had written, it appeared to me that you had, in fact, stated the very thing that you claimed to have not. If I drew that conclusion, it would be logical to assume that others might as well. It was not a comment on your experience with dog breeds but rather an opportunity for you to clarify what looked to me (and I'm sure others) like you were contradicting yourself. Frankly, I no longer care to hear an explanation and according to you I wouldn't be able to anyway since I have my head in my backside. You may very well have interesting and legitimate viewpoints, but the manner in which you present them is off-putting.

 

[JJSS89]

I like dogs...wait I see it is too late

 

[myfarm4579]

I have a boxer than looks over my flock