I need a guard dog

[centrarchid]

The puppy is a Great Pyrenees. I know you cant just bring a 2 month old pup and throw him in with your chickens thats just asking for trouble. My question is if i buy him/her do i need to leave them tied by the chickens for a little while? And is it very possible for the pup as i finally trust him/her enough to be "free" and do their job to work its way towards the highway?

Dog will not bond to chickens, at least mine do not, as limitation appears to come from chicken side. During most of day I would use confinement of dog with a fully adult standard rooster or two. Bigger roosters better. Periodically during day release dog among general flock under supervision and take time to patrol perimeter. At some point you will want dog to patrol at night so birds need to roost in dog proof locations for a while so no tie-cords during that interval. Upside from pup molesting chickens is it will learn alarm calls that will reduce response time to predators once dog matures. Tie-cord setup will have birds spread as I do so dog will have to be more vigilante than would be with a single cohesive flock of sheep. You want to avoid dog going into house dog or non-roaming mode as that can result in birds in perimeter being much less protected. At work on a single research farm we have about ten dogs (about half are GP's) that are generally kept singly with respect to herds of sheep and/or goats. Dogs and livestock are confined by at least two perimeters of fencing with inner usually being electrified. A riled dog does not always respect the electrified fencing so outer gives an addition buffer between dogs and highway bordering property. When said an done the fencing will be your first limitation so make sure that is adequate. Then even when dog is in place keep birds away from fencing if practical. With good fencing less dog is required as the biggest threat, other dogs. will not be able get in. Typically my biggest concern in terms of size is the 35 lb coyote but most consistent concern is Mr. Red Fox so smaller / faster / smarter dogs have been my route. Much more training was involved but it enables me to repel and sometimes eliminate bad guys that employ snatch and run. You will be having dead opossums and raccoons brought up but try to make dogs role easier by not having charges too spread out as that can make proper defending more difficult.

 

[Sonya9]

Dog will not bond to chickens, at least mine do not, as limitation appears to come from chicken side. During most of day I would use confinement of dog with a fully adult standard rooster or two. Bigger roosters better.

Hopefully very safely and carefully introduced to the roosters, a rooster could attack and seriously harm a pup especially if they spurred the eyes.

Perhaps when it comes to chickens the word bond is more akin to "ownership". My 5 year old LGD had never been around birds (he was raised to guard goats). I made sure when I got chicks that he understood they were "our" chicks and not some wild birds that showed up in his yard.

He actually drove with me all 3 times that I bought chicks/chickens so he knew I brought them home, the chicks were in a brooder in the house where he would see them everyday and see me caring for them.

Here is a short video showing the first time he was actually in a pen with the chicks, they had all seen each other every day while in the brooder but this is the first time they were all loose together and able to physically interact.

 

[EeyoreD]

Secondly the dogs are NOT machines, real true working dogs are best raised by OTHER working LGD's until they are a year or so old so they learn how to deal with livestock.

I'm curious about this (honestly, I'm not doubting you). Later you also mention that they bond with the stock they're guarding. Obviously a year-old (or so) trained dog will cost a lot but if it's bonded with something else, will it work for you? Do you need to find someone that has bonded it with poultry? Even if they have, given that bond, how long would it take to bond with YOUR poultry?

I've long been curious about LGDs but it seems like such a complex thing... Useful but only if you know what you're doing and your breeder does, too. So tempting but possibly more trouble than it might be worth.

That said, if I understood them more, I would totally get one.

EDIT: But I also still wonder about handling the dynamic between having it recognize you as "god" but not having it in the house/part of the family. These are the things I don't understand.

 

[centrarchid]

I'm curious about this (honestly, I'm not doubting you).  Later you also mention that they bond with the stock they're guarding.  Obviously a year-old (or so) trained dog will cost a lot but if it's bonded with something else, will it work for you?  Do you need to find someone that has bonded it with poultry?  Even if they have, given that bond, how long would it take to bond with YOUR poultry?

I've long been curious about LGDs but it seems like such a complex thing...  Useful but only if you know what you're doing and your breeder does, too.  So tempting but possibly more trouble than it might be worth.

That said, if I understood them more, I would totally get one.

EDIT:  But I also still wonder about handling the dynamic between having it recognize you as "god" but not having it in the house/part of the family.  These are the things I don't understand.

The bonding with poultry part is overrated when it comes to poultry. The use of "true" livestock guardian with respect to poultry is likely coming from those selling pups those that spent a large amount on them. It is kind of like bragging on fancy high priced but not always more functional automobiles (think status symbol). Bonding with something else should not be a problem if chicken killing still under control. Problem with bonding to typical livestock is where the herd wanders away from where poultry locate themselves which thus remove chickens from dog's protective umbrella. This is not a problem if all animals confined to a couple acres or so which is reality for most backyard poultry folks.


The breeder business and whether the dog is directly from working stock is also not all that important. A keeper of livestock that knows their way around livestock and dogs can repair a lot of damage coming from a dog lacking papers although good background speeds process which can be expensive if you have what is potentially an economically viable herd.

If I had to re-dog in a hurry, I would have little trouble buying a an adult LGD with well established pattern of killing poultry and beginning the training process which would likely getting us back into safe flock status quicker than starting with a pup; 30 days tops. Biggest concern about dog is does it get out and stay out with charges when they need it.

 

[Sonya9]

EDIT: But I also still wonder about handling the dynamic between having it recognize you as "god" but not having it in the house/part of the family. These are the things I don't understand.

With an LGD you are NOT their "god" you are their "friend". They are about as likely to follow your commands as the average house cat. They do learn boundaries regarding what they can and cannot do when taught patiently (their whole world is boundaries and boundary enforcement) but their job is to protect, not to do tricks and obey silly human whims. They respect your boundaries, they protect your stuff, and you also need to respect their boundaries (I don't take my dogs treats, those are his and I have learned to respect "his" stuff, don't learn that lesson the hard way).

The part about raising them with the flock and NOT treating them like pets if you want them to guard away from your house is this: if you make them bond first and foremost with you, your family etc...they will be obsessed with protecting YOU and not your flock. You will always be their top concern. They also bond closely with other dogs, particularly LGDs which is why most folks use TEAMS of dogs so the dogs can bond with each other in the field and have companionship and mental stimulation while doing their job. A lonely, bored dog is not a content guardian.

I think it also depends heavily on the space and layout of your place. If your flock is away from the house the dogs need to stay near the flock. If it is CLOSE to your house (as mine is) the dog will protect them as an extension of "home". Since my lgd is a companion dog now he is obsessed with protecting me, if I go some where he wants to go with me and make sure I am safe, if he was bonded with a flock of sheep and other guardian dogs then I could come and go and he wouldn't care or worry about me, he would stay with the flock and other guardians because THEY would be his top priority and responsibility.

They were bred to guard flocks independently when the shepherd was NOT around, their ability to act on their own and use their OWN judgement without looking to humans for guidance is paramount. They weren't bred to be obedient to human requests and that isn't really a part of their nature. That is why they see us as friends NOT gods who must be obeyed (friends show each other mutual respect).

Edited to add that is also why it is EXTREMELY IMPORTANT to have good fencing, if those dogs decide to "protect" the owners can't call them off, the dogs won't listen at all if they believe their owner/flock is in serious danger, they will simply eliminate the threat (if the threat happens to be the fed-x guy or the teenager down the street coming by to sell candy for band practice that can lead to HUGE lawsuits if safe fencing was not employed).

 

[Sonya9]

My first Guardian dog ( Marty) was also a rehome back in 2009, i got her at the age of 5 months, the owned said she wanted to stay up by the house with their other dog and not up at the barn with the animals, brought her home and in 6 months she turned into the best Guardian on my place.

So the pup wanted companionship and was scared, hence being "gotten rid of" as an unworthy LGD.

Not the machine the owners thought they were purchasing so they didn't want it anymore.

Once she had a good home she became the best guardian ever, they guard/protect what they love.

 

[EeyoreD]

Sonya9, thank you so much for your explanations. I think the second I posted it that "god" wasn't what I really meant. I have a border collie house dog mix right now. She's an excellent alerter but I MUST investigate otherwise she gets more and more agitated. Until I actually do something, she feels her job isn't done. Obviously BCs are NOT LGDs but I've raised several different breeds in my life, many guardians (area or livestock - and I've not been their god but been who they look to for cues - I've always been drawn to the larger, guarder breeds but up until now didn't have anything for them to guard. I just recognized that most people won't get a huge dog and I also love the personalities but until now that was personalities as a house pet)

Basically I've only, thus far, raised dogs as house pets. So I have a (probably ignorant) fear that if I get a LGD and use it as such it's going to be lonely or unfulfilled without being a lap dog as all mine turn into. Actually I'm not sure it's that ignorant as there are stories here about ill-prepared LGDs being returned for being just that. It's understandable that even an independent dog would need some support. I guess a better wording of my question is this:

I'm used to my dogs not wanting to be that far from me (except the border collie - I love her but i wish she wouldn't run to the next county if there's suddenly an opening for her to do so). So it's clearly a ME issue in learning how to raise a LGD. Maybe I anthropomorphize too much. I would fear they were lonely for scared and jump in - clearly that's bad. But then you all have stories about lonely/scared dogs that you've fixed. So I guess I'm confused on where the balance there is.

I don't want to chuck a dog out into a field and be like "OK! GUARD!". Obviously that's idiotic. But then I can't cuddle it either because then it's all about me and not all about the livestock. So where's the line and how do you toe it?

 

[longswamp farm]

A dog can be a great help in guarding your chickens.....but starting with a puppy has been easier for me to train. The training was something I had to work at each and every day, but it has really paid off. My bred of dog was a blue heeler, she is now just a little over a year old and will even protect the chickens. I don't know about other breeds of dogs, but I do believe training and lots of patience really does pay off.

 

[Mtnchickenlady]

I'm a new chicken owner- and I really hate the thought of a predator getting into the run or coop and killing my chickens. We've done every thing we know to build a safe run and coop, but I will feel they will be better protected if we have an LGD. Besides, we've been wanting an "outside" dog for a while now. Am I correct in that we'll need a fenced in area around our yard and coop area? Presently, we have no fence, except for the run/coop. Also, I'm concerned about training the dog to guard the chickens. I have a friend who had a dog who protected her hens very well until one day she came home and found her dog had killed all the hens. Ugh! I just don't know what to do. Any suggestions?

 

[centrarchid]

Train dog properly and fence it in. Full training requires 2 years for virtually all dogs, sometimes more than 2, excepting possibly for some toy breeds. For chickens you do not need an LGD, any breed big enough with attitude can do it. Even with LGD, when bigger and/or social predators then two dogs needed.

The training with LGD is not to guard, rather not to kill poultry as making for the imprinting does not seem to work on chickens.