White Eyes

[KsKingBee]

I have an IB Pied who I am sure that it had White Eyes last year, not a lot, bus a dozen or more. His train is about 2/3 grown and I don't see any this year. Is it possible to reverse and not get any a year after having some?

 

[AugeredIn]

So Jacky and I were having a conversation via text regarding silver pied and white eyes. I moved the conversation hear as it is easier to record for posterity.

Jacky's question is does dark silver pied males have white eyes? The answer is yes.

The second question is what is the difference between white eye (We/We) and silver pied white eye (Wesp/Wesp). The answer is that one will produce silver pied birds and one will not. Other wise there is little difference visually.

I also had someone asking some general silver pied questions and where that specific mutation resided. The simple answer is that I don't know for absolute sure and apparently no one else does for sure either. If they do they aren't talking. I do have an opinion. Lets review what we know:

There are four possibilities for the location of the silver pied mutation:
1. The white gene.
2. The pied gene.
3. The white eye gene.
4. Or a totally separate location that either mimics one of the above or replaces it as an allele.

The first three possibilities make much more sense than number four.

So lets start with a pair of silver pied birds. If we breed them together we get white birds, silver pied birds and dark silver pied birds in the standard 25%, 50%. 25% ratio.

By experience I know that if I breed the silver pied birds back to each other they breed true and produce the same ratio.

By experience if I breed a silver pied child to a dark pied child I get dark silver pied and silver pied chicks. What does this tell us? It means the silver pied mutation must be on the pied or white eye genes if we assume number 4 above is not at play. It cannot exist on the white gene or the dark silver pied parent would not have produced silver pied chicks right? Sounds good so far.

By experience if we breed the white birds from a silver pied pairing to a silver pied sibling we get more white birds and silver pied birds. This tells us that the silver pied mutation must be on the white or white eye gene if we assume number 4 is not in play. But we already decided it cannot be on the white gene so that eliminates the pied gene and the white gene as the location of the mutation.

This leaves only the white eye gene or number 4 above as the possible culprits right?

Based upon this information my opinion is that the silver pied mutation is a mutation to the white eye genes. Unfortunately, it might not be this easy as there are reports of silver pieds being created from birds that don't necessarily originate from silver pied pairings. More experiments are needed and we just all have to provide our experience as we gain it.

 

[DylansMom]

Rats! And I was sure that those white centers in the eyes meant white eye. So this is just Pied markings?

To me these look like White Eyes.



These on the other hand are odd looking to me, but I am not at all familiar with WE so I just assumed this was another way it expresses. To see an Eye feather with color in the ocelli and then white tips on the herl(fringe) is not something any of my birds have.


And he is only showing 3 or 4 feathers with white on them this year?

 

[zazouse]

Well years ago i asked about a splash of white being on a peacocks eye feather rather than the entire eye being white and i was told by many many folks here that my birds was a white eyed, IMO i did not think he was cause his eyes only had a splash of white

I thought the eye would have more white and questioned if the eyes would get more white in the eyes as i thought it was pretter and was told they could but because my not all my peacock feathers had white splashed in the eye that my boy was only caring one white eyed gene , that if he had two white eyed genes he would have white on all the eyes, never once did anyone say that the entire eye should be white

I really don't care, i have silvers coming so i am good i would just like to know which is right .
Heck every time someone post a photo of an IB hen with white feathers on her back folks say it is a white eyed hen



George at Conner Hills would know so i hope he comes and help us understand with his expertise.

 

[AugeredIn]

It can change, even drastically, year to year but I am surprised he would have absolutely none.

 

[Garden Peas]

Yes.  Zero White Eyes on the train.  If it happens that way sometimes I am ok, if it is unheard of I am mistaken and need to change my pairings for him.  I bought him three hens because he had WE, now I don't see any.  

Well if he had white eyes in a previous year, the genetics are still there ;-)

 

[Garden Peas]

How a feather follicle programmed to produce feathered white eyes produce normal feathers?
Climate change?

I have always heard that white eye birds can have variable amounts of white eye feathers from year to year. The amount of dappling in a horse's coat can vary from year to year also. These are not totally simple processes, as much as we would like them to be simple.

 

[AugeredIn]

I see no white eyes in the photo only pied markings.

 

[KsKingBee]

To me these look like White Eyes.



These on the other hand are odd looking to me, but I am not at all familiar with WE so I just assumed this was another way it expresses. To see an Eye feather with color in the ocelli and then white tips on the herl(fringe) is not something any of my birds have.


And he is only showing 3 or 4 feathers with white on them this year?

Mindy, the day I started this post I had seen him displaying and I saw NONE. I have gone through a lot of doubting myself until I found these two pics from last May to confirm that this bird really did have some white on his train. My thought now brings me to conclude that he was three last year and that this train was an immature. not sexually, but first full train.

I don't think that this new train is fully grown yet and it may still be going through some changes. I watched him today and he did not do any displaying. I did however get these photos as he walked by me. I will get that displaying photo as soon as I can.





I have no idea if the white comes in as it matures or if the white should be there all along the feathers development.

Here are some other views if it would help.



He loves peanuts.



I wish I could get a better view of the almost cameo colored patches he has on both pant legs surrounded by white. If you can enlarge this pic you can see some on the right inner thigh.

 

[Garden Peas]

Well years ago i asked about a splash of white being on a peacocks eye feather rather than the entire eye being white and i was told by many many folks here that my birds was a white eyed, IMO i did not think he was cause his eyes only had a splash of white

I thought the eye would have more white and questioned if the eyes would get more white in the eyes as i thought it was pretter and was told they could but because my not all my peacock feathers had white splashed in the eye that my boy was only caring one white eyed gene , that if he had two white eyed genes he would have white on all the eyes, never once did anyone say that the entire eye should be white

I really don't care, i have silvers coming so i am good i would just like to know which is right .
Heck every time someone post a photo of an IB hen with white feathers on her back folks say it is a white eyed hen



George at Conner Hills would know so i hope he comes and help us understand with his expertise.

I was also under the impression that splashes of white in the ocelli, rather than a full white eye could mean partial WE or just a single WE gene... and thought I had seen photos where folks said that was what it was. No clue if they actually knew, or if there's been a whole lot of assuming going on.

And I agree, we keep seeing hens with what seem from the photos to be random white feathers on the back, and then sometimes frosting... and I thought I understood that the more frosted ones were double WE, where the ones with kinda random white feathers were single WE?

It is massively confusing, so I am very glad we are having this discussion. Thanks very much @KsKingBee for starting it.