16% or 18% Nutrena Feed

[CKfarm22]

Thanks for all the info. It really helps!
I was just very concerned about them getting too much protein from meal worms and their feed. Especially if my friends give them meal worms once or twice a day.

I thought that the higher protein is better, especially since they free range all day, and don't rely on feed solely. Every 4-6 days I will have to top off my 3lb feeder.

Also, I have had experience where more protein in my hen's diet results in better egg laying despite the daylight amount.

By the way, I have golden comets, leghorns, and barred rock.

In my opinion, mealworms are given as treats and not an everyday, 2 times a day thing. And not too many either. One small handful is good as a treat, every couple days

 

[nuthatched]

The best thing is to feed the highest possible protein feed you can get, %16and%18 aren't good enough in my opinion. You don't get liver issue unless you feed 75% protein for a few months. Chickens eat quite a bit of protein, they need it for feathers, eggs and body, like previously said, layer feed is made for chickens who are dispatched at less at about 15 months, there's no neneed to waste protein on birds who will be dispatched soon

 

[Folly's place]

Soy is not a filler in feeds, it's a very good ingredient.
Kidney issues can develop when chickens not actually laying eggs are fed a layer diet, because if the high calcium in those feeds. Any chicken who's not actively laying eggs, needs much less calcium in their diet. so here we feed everyone an all-flock diet (Flock Raiser) with oyster shell in a separate container.
People having health issues with a specific ingredient probably should avoid it in their poultry feed. At least then the dust in the coop won't include that material.
Mary

 

[JacinLarkwell]

I used to feed 16 percent because that was the only layer feed i could get (yes, i feed layer and not all flock plus OS).

My new store I buy feed from has 17% as the only avaliable layer feed. That extra 1% may not seem like a lot, but I've noticed changes in my quail especially and my birds eat slightly less (not enough to reduce costs, but im not filling every bowl every day like i was).

 

[Folly's place]

And Nutrena's Feather Fixer is a layer diet, including high calcium levels, not what molting birds should be eating, because almost all of them will be laying few or no eggs. The Flock Raiser has 20% protein, acceptable Ca levels, and costs less than Feather Fixer.
Mary

 

[3KillerBs]

and my birds eat slightly less

Over Christmas I had to buy one bag of cheap layer feed from Walmart on a day when we couldn't possibly get to the feed store before it closed.

I noticed that the flock went through the bag a couple days faster (at a time when I was going through just a bit less than 2 bags of all-flock per week). I assumed that they had to eat more because the quality of the nutrition was inferior.

 

[MrLeeHo]

Following as i am also interesting in the different opinions on feed. I switched from 16% to 18% over the winter and provide oyster shells. I haven't noticed any difference.

As for the comments on food tolerance/intolerance...i am of the opinion that it is dependent on the individual for humans. If something doesn't make you feel good when you eat it, don't eat it. I would assume this would be similar for most animals...

 

[3KillerBs]

Following as i am also interesting in the different opinions on feed. I switched from 16% to 18% over the winter and provide oyster shells. I haven't noticed any difference.

As for the comments on food tolerance/intolerance...i am of the opinion that it is dependent on the individual for humans. If something doesn't make you feel good when you eat it, don't eat it. I would assume this would be similar for most animals...

But make SURE it's actually the food that is the problem.

My one SIL restricted her diet so much by blaming the food she'd recently eaten for every little unwellness -- any sort of mild, transitory, meaningless symptom that a person might experience and/or imagine -- that she compromised her nutrition and health to the point that her doctor had to insist that she reintroduce most of the things she was avoiding.

 

[U_Stormcrow]

So I switched from Dumor 16% to Nutrena Soy-Free 18%, due to molting and the colder weather. However, I am considering changing to the Nutrena 16% feed, since its getting warmer. I like the soy-free feed though, and cannot find another nutrena feed that is soy free. Only the 18% is soy-free.

I also read that soy is not good for hens..... True?

Even though the Nutrena soy-free bag says 'year round feed', I was curious as to which percentage of protein is best.

My hens all free range by the way, and they don't eat a ton of their feed, even in the winter. Every 3-5 days I top off their 3lb feeder.

Are your friends the ones giving you advice? They don't know much about chickens and feeding them. You are asking good questions here. @3KillerBs , ty for the invite to the conversation.

[Warning - WALL of Text]

Soy is fine. Soy is, in fact, quite good for chickens.

Lets go back a bit. Roughly a half century ago, a number of studies were conducted in the US, big studies (which you can easily find on the internet and read, if you so desire), with exactly one purpose in mind. To produce the lowest cost feed possible, for commercial laying hen breeds, in commercial management conditions, during their peak laying period (roughly until they reach 18-20 months of life, at which point they become pet food, by-product meal, etc), below which cost, losses due to reduced rate of lay, reduced egg size, and increased chicken mortality exceeded the savings in feed costs. The result is what we call "layer feed" today.

Since that time, chiocken breeds have been further improved, we've discovered new ways to test Amino Acid content, we've done lots more studies on the perfect balance of amino acids for various breeds (mostly commercial broilers, and commercial layers) at various life stages. We've improved our methods of keeping chickens commercially. "We", meaning mostly the EU, China, a bit in India, pretty much every place but the US. You can easily find and read those studies too. We (the world) now know a lot more about how to raise commercial layers effectively and efficiently, than we did 50 years ago - we no longer have to rely on "protein level" as an analog for some other critical component we can't directly measure.

Yet "layer feed" remains unchanged!

Even if it hadn't, why - knowing now the purpose for which layer feed was designed - would you think it the best thing for your birds? Your backyard chickens aren't the commercial laying breeds of the '60s, 70s, 80s. Your purpose is not to minimize costs, then sell the survivors as dogfood next year. Your conditions aren't a battery factory (even those have improved - not just for reasons of PR or changes in legislation - but for efficiency and cost savings).

Detour. Soy. Like @3KillerBs , I've watched soy come into and out of fashion. Sadly, it tends to do so in parallel with anti-Asian sentiment here in the US. I've also seen it promoted here as a superfood. There was the huge push to soy-based infant milk. There was the tofu craze in culinary. A high-soy, "heart healthy" diet craze. A high-soy "no animal protein" diet craze.

Most of the current objections to soy wearing the veneer of science correctly point out that soy is high in chemicals, isoflavones, which resemble estrogen, called phytoestrogens (as in plant based-estrogens). A brief boint on science claims based on resemblances. Do you know two chemicals, vital to life, which resemble each other *more* than human estrogen and phytoestrogen? Hemoglobin and chlorophyll.

There ARE, obviously, a few people alergic to soy, just as there are people alergic to peanuts (another legume), chocolate, and just about every other thing on the planet. Humans are weird, varied, and diverse. Outside of those few, the science on the effects of isoflavone heavy diets (and soy heavy particularly) and human disease is unsettled. Lots of assumed relationships don't bear out in large scale study. Other high isoflavone foods? Pistacchio. Lentils. Peas. Beans. Currants. Raisins...

Even if they did, its a far step from eating soy makes you "x" to eating something that ate soy makes you "x". Science tells us that almost none of the isoflavones that a chicken consumes makes it into the chicken. Most are broken down and repurposed. What little is left mostly ends up in the egg, or concentrated in some organs, rather than the meat. The levels are scientifically measurable, yes, but well below levels of human detection. You know the adage, "the dosage is the poison"? Here, the dosage is quite low, almost immeasurably low (and until recent advancements in means of measurement, it *was* immeasurably low).

That's the gloss of why soy isn't bad, now lets detour back to why it might be beneficial in a chicken's diet, and your question about protein levels...

Remember those US studies? How cheap can we make the feed? and how the US used protein level as an analog for something we couldn't measure at the time? Well, feed science has moved on. In the EU, they don't have the land we do, just "throwing more protein at it" (as we have traditionally done in the US) isn't cost effective for them. [There's that cost thing again] Chicken is big business, its the staple animal protein source for the majority of the world. So they did some more large studies...

End result, we now know what Amino Acids, in what ratios, are most needed for a chicken's health at various life stages. We need not rely on protein % for something we can't directly measure. The answer is, there are four critical (as in, the bird can't produce it themselves, or in amounts needed for its health) amino acids. In declining level of importance, they are Methionine, Lysine, Threonine, and Tryptophan. To be used most efficiently, they need to be in a ratio, roughly 50:100:60:20. An excess of any is wasted, but not harmful (in levels likely to be seen in feed), a dearth of any causes developmental damage and illness (just as a lack of Vitamin C causes scurvy in humans...).

Different plants contain amino acids (particularly the four we most care about for our birds) in different ratios. Given all our crop land, we tend to favor grain heavy diets.

The AA ratio in
Barley: 20:45:40:15
Corn? 20:30:35:5
Oats: 20:45:35:15
Soft wheat? 20:30:30:15

By simply "feeding more", particularly corn + [grain], its relatively easy to get the Threonine and Tryptophan levels up to desired targets - so easy, in fact, that diets based on a mix of corn and another grain are essentially never deficient in those AAs. They don't even appear on US Guaranteed nutrition labels. Those same diets reult in a deficiency of both Methionine and Lysine - without which, the chickens can't use all the threonine and tryptophan they are consuming. Accordingly, you will see both Met and Lys listed on a US feed label.

How do we get those things? We add to the feed mix ingredients which have relatively high ratios of those first two, critical, limiting amino acids. Lysine is easy. Seeds and nuts, as it turns out, are high in Lysine. Seeds are abundant.

Sunflower: 35:65:60:20
Rapeseed (Canola): 40:130:100:25
White Millet: 25:55:50:15
Flax (Linseed): 45:95:105:40

Unfortunately, seeds (like mealworms) are also very high in fat - and too much fat will kill a chicken FAR faster than too little protein (or the wrong AA balance) will. Most sources recommend a chicken's diet be about 3.5% fat +/-. Corn and Grains tend to range from about 1.5% to 4.5% - mix 'em together, and you are generally in the right range. Those seeds we need? Flax is about 35% fat. Rapeseed, Sesame Seed, Sunflower Seed? All around 45-50% fat. Even a small amount quickly exceeds recommendations. Notice I skipped millet? Ever wonder why there is SO much millet in lots of birdseed mixes? One, its cheap. Two, its only about 5-6% fat. (Part of why song birds throw it at the ground, so often! They want the "good stuff" with higher fat content, which they need to support flight).

So, we still need Methionine - without which, everything else is wasted. In the plant world, the best sources of Methionine are all in legumes. Now raw legumes are bad for poultry in quantity, they need to be heat treated first. But for us, that's a benefit - it allows them to be dried and have their nutrition concentrated.

Soy (dehulled): 70:270:180:60 Damn, that's Excellent! (also, expensive)
Dried high-protein soybean meal (its a byproduct): 70:305:195:70 (much cheaper).

Even a little soy, and you've suddenly fixed the feed. Now, you can use other legumes, though there are problems if you use too much of them in your feed, problems that heat treatment doesn't fully fix (there are other ways - but not relevant here).

Cow Peas (Black-eyed, etc): 35:175:100:30
Faba/Fava: 25:180:100:25
Lentils: 25:175:95:20
Winter Peas: 25:170:90:20

All are great for bumping up Lysine and Threonine, better than the grains for Methionine, and while not as good as the seeds, MUCH lower in fat. But compared to Soy??? There just isn't a comparison...

Now, we **COULD** do what Europe does. They feed relatively low protein corn/grain mixes, and make up for the missing Amino Acids by adding synthetic Methionine and Lysine (dl-Methionine and l-Lysine on the ingredient list). Synthetic methionine is hard to make (expensive) compared to l-Lysine, and further, its addition is limited by US law. So if you want good levels of it (particularly critical for hatchlings, juveniles, adolescents, as its a key part of connective tissues and the digestive tract), you need either Soy, an animal based protein source (porcine blood meal, menhaden fish meal, shrimp meal, etc), synthetics, or some combination of the three.

Finally, back to your question. On the assumption that you are a typical backyard owner, of the typical backyard flock, with typical backyard management - more interested in the health and longevity of your birds than their commercial cost effectiveness (and more likely to be a "dual purpose", heritage, or display breed than a commercial leghorn or RSL line with an 18-20 month lifespan before culling), I recommend feeding an All Flock/Flock raiser type feed to all of your flock, all of their lives, with free choice oyster shell, and free choice grit on the side. AF/FR here means (in declining order of importance) an 18-20% protein feed (because protein is cheap here), 3.5% fat +/-, 3.5% fiber +/-, 1.5% calcium +/-. That will generally get you the best Methionine and Lysine levels available in a commercial feed. We would really like to see Methionine levels of 0.35% or higher - 0.5-0.6% is great, Lysine levels of at least 0.7%, 0.9-1.1% is great, and if we are being particularly demanding, it would be spectacular to see phospherus levels of 0.7% as well (that's another, equally long post).

Your birds will benefit in more frequent laying (barely 1-3% increase in frequency per the studies), larger eggs (barely, 1-3% increase in volume), more nutritious eggs (somewhat) with firmer yolks, a larger, healthier bird of greater resistance to both environemntal and disease related stressors (harder to measure), and of (anticipated) longer lifespans. There are, of course, no guarantees in life. Why not higher protein still? First, because the benefits of increasing protein levels diminish much faster than costs increase, and second because wasted/excess protein is expressed in chickens not thru disease in the way excess fat is (i.e. fatty liver disease and sudden heart failure), or excess calcuim is (laundry list of disabilities), but as excess nitrogen in the waste. Meaning ammonia, primarily. That's its own problem, but more for commercial hatcheries than backyard owners.

I hope you found that instructive/informative. Sorry for the roundabout trip to your answer. Its like that in my head all the time. Thank you for reading this far.

 

[U_Stormcrow]

...and for what its worth, I don't feed my own flock the way I just recommended - but my managegement practices are much different from most backyard owners, and my flock's (see signature) purpose differs as well.

I like to imagine that I know a little bit more about the subject of feeding chickens than most, and that the risks I am taking in the way I feed my birds are "educated" ones, whose benefits outweigh their costs.

I actually feed my birds 24% protein feed for approx their first 8 weeks of life, before dropping them to a less expensive mix that ends up at 20% but has too much calcium to be healthy long term for my boys. But none of my flock are expected to escape culling for long - my productive girls get a good year, sometimes two - making my management of them closer to commercial layers. My boys, except my breeders, end up on the table between 16 and 20 weeks (so that excess calcium has little time to build up - and they aren't exposed to it at all during their most critical period of development). The extra protein in their first half of life helps them to bulk up for table, partially offseting the higher costs of raising them. My breeders become stew after a season with the girls - or sausage. Again, limiting the excess calcium exposure somewhat.

Cost is a concern for me - even with the pasture, I feed 100#+ a week during winter. It adds up fast. Finally, my birds are dual purpose free rangers - which is to say, good at none of the above - but I'm culling my way towards a better flock.