2 hens dead over night and

[Isaiah53]

Sigh. Sometimes I think this is unbearable. 2 days ago one of my older hens (maybe 3 years, they were here when we bought the farm) was not as active. She's one of these loner hens and is often by herself. She was eating and drinking, just noticed she was not as active. Since the weather has cooled down and there were absolutely no other symptoms, like NOTHING, no sneezing, coughing, no runny eyes, no head shaking, no crop issues, no egg binding... Yes, looked. In August, I noticed yellowish foamy droppings, so I treated for coccidiosis. Didn't seem to be the problem, the droppings lessened but I still saw some foamy yellow droppings. Then I noticed lice, so I cleaned and treated the coops and floors with permethrin and carbaryl, and the vet gave me ivermectin. He said it was highly unlikely it was coccidiosis at their age and the dry weather. Last ivermectin treatment was September 2 through the 4th (3 days). The vet also gave me panacur for gapeworm and tapeworms (to be thorough) I thought I'd seen a pin worm but could be wrong.

Treatments were as follows.
Corid: 17 August one treatment over 5 days (finished August 21st) vet said wait one day between Corid and ivermectin.
Ivermectin (1st dose) Aug 23 (over 3 days then 10 days off)
Ivermectin (2nd dose) Sept 2 (over 3 days then 10 days off)
Panacur: (1 dose) Sept 20th (over 5 days then 21 days off) today was the last day of the first treatment of panacur
Panacur: 2nd dose supposed to start October 17th for 5 days


Now I'm worried this may have caused their demise, maybe too hard on their systems. Both of the original flock, older birds, a bit quirky and look identical.

Now my vet is awesome. He lived in the Netherlands and worked in a large poultry practice. He knows his stuff. I am at a loss as to what to do. The second hen died just after I let them out this morning so between 6:30am and 8:30am when I went back to check on their panacur treatment. (to see if I needed to refill their water). Both birds had lost weight so obviously they hid this well for some time
But again, absolutely no other obvious symptoms. Now I'm concerned as I have 7 new chicks that are 2 weeks old, 12 that hatched over the last few days and more to hatch in another week. Plus about 80 more combined in the same area.

I am beginning to think it's time to cull my whole flock except for a few for laying.

Your thoughts?

 

[EggSighted4Life]

Somehow I feel like maybe liver issues? So sorry for your troubles.

What do you feed including treats and supplements? Yellow foamy dropping is not a sign of worms as far as I know... and when I had a hen that yellow foamy droppings consisted even though fecal floats came back negative an no one else seemed to have the issue... I processed her for eating as I considered it be possibly genetic as there were NO other signs (still actively laying and foraging) and didn't want to sell for someone else to deal with... and that's what I do with all my older birds BEFORE their health starts to decline. If it is a possibility for you... I recommend it as good flock management practice...

Yes, I do think overkill was a possibility... as all those things are poison. Did your vet run a float to look for worms? Look at a picture of what you think you saw or anything like that?

Have you found anywhere in Canada to have a necropsy done or do you think you might work your way towards doing one?

Were these ladies you lost Orpington? Or do you know which breed?

With all the treatments I might consider offering some vitamins or even probiotics to help get the gut and system back on balance.

That's a whole lot of birds. I don't think I would want to cull out all the older ones as it really is nice to have some mature birds helping run the flock and show new layers how to act and where it's safe to lay. I cull out SOME of my older birds each year... starting with anyone who doesn't lay regularly (at the very first sign of lash egg) or otherwise fit in well with the flock.

Considering age of the gals who passed away... and resemblance of the two... I would probably NOT be super worried about my younger birds at this point. I would likely think it could have been age or genetics... possibly accentuated by external factors. Two at one time make it fairly scary though... and I would want to rule out some other sort of poisoning or possible contaminant.

These are just my thoughts, of course I am NO professional. And I thank you for sharing your learning journey... difficult though is may be, with us! Sounds like you have really been through it, and working VERY hard (including obvious cost) to take of your animals. Hang in there!

 

[Isaiah53]

Somehow I feel like maybe liver issues? So sorry for your troubles.

What do you feed including treats and supplements? Yellow foamy dropping is not a sign of worms as far as I know... and when I had a hen that yellow foamy droppings consisted even though fecal floats came back negative an no one else seemed to have the issue... I processed her for eating as I considered it be possibly genetic as there were NO other signs (still actively laying and foraging) and didn't want to sell for someone else to deal with... and that's what I do with all my older birds BEFORE their health starts to decline. If it is a possibility for you... I recommend it as good flock management practice...

Yes, I do think overkill was a possibility... as all those things are poison. Did your vet run a float to look for worms? Look at a picture of what you think you saw or anything like that?

Have you found anywhere in Canada to have a necropsy done or do you think you might work your way towards doing one?

Were these ladies you lost Orpington? Or do you know which breed?

With all the treatments I might consider offering some vitamins or even probiotics to help get the gut and system back on balance.

That's a whole lot of birds. I don't think I would want to cull out all the older ones as it really is nice to have some mature birds helping run the flock and show new layers how to act and where it's safe to lay. I cull out SOME of my older birds each year... starting with anyone who doesn't lay regularly (at the very first sign of lash egg) or otherwise fit in well with the flock.

Considering age of the gals who passed away... and resemblance of the two... I would probably NOT be super worried about my younger birds at this point. I would likely think it could have been age or genetics... possibly accentuated by external factors. Two at one time make it fairly scary though... and I would want to rule out some other sort of poisoning or possible contaminant.

These are just my thoughts, of course I am NO professional. And I thank you for sharing your learning journey... difficult though is may be, with us! Sounds like you have really been through it, and working VERY hard (including obvious cost) to take of your animals. Hang in there!

Thank you for your kind words
Sometimes I spend hours a day with my chickens watching them all to make sure I gauge each of their idiosyncrasies what's normal and what's not. Of course it's not easy to see everything, especially with the newer birds. But these two were the original flock. The previous owner said they were Orpingtons (black /white barred).

They're fed High Pro Layer Feed 15 % protein. Some were going through a light molt and I would give them some black oil sunflower seed. As the weather is getting down to 1C overnight I'd throw out some hen scratch with corn in it to help with warmth at night. Between the two treats and 35 birds they'd get about 2 to 4 cups combined alternating days. They get greens several times a week and yesterday I gave them some kombucha scobies for their digestive tract. They get that once a month.

I am considering a necropsy, waiting to hear back the problem is shipping them.

I'll ask my vet his opinion as well. I am wondering if it is the worming part but I have been inspecting their droppings and have seen nothing. Absolutely nothing.

It's all so bizarre, really.

 

[Eggcessive]

Sorry for your loss. I don’t understand using the ivermectin for 3 days and again later for multiple treatments. Usually it is used once, and again in 14 days. Panacur is safe, but why did he have you use it for 5 days treatments 3 times? Normally for the usual chickens worms, it is given 1/4 ml orally, then repeated in 10 days. For dangerous rare worms (capillary worms) it is given 5 days in a row. Were you using a similar dosage? I just think there may have been too many drugs used. A necropsy through a regional poultry college is a good way to diagnose an illness if you lose another bird. Here is a link for your necropsy lab—all birds should be refrigerated and shipped promptly:
https://www2.gov.bc.ca/gov/content/...ls-and-crops/animal-health/pathology-necropsy

 

[EggSighted4Life]

They're fed High Pro Layer Feed 15 % protein. Some were going through a light molt and I would give them some black oil sunflower seed.

Orpington specifically have been known to get fatty liver disease.

Also that whole corn before they go to bed is a myth perpetuated by people who don't understand... a calorie is a calorie... and that is how chickens get their ENERGY to support the natural processes. Feathers are their down jackets to keep them warm. Giving calories from nutritious feed instead of high fat or high carb things which have NO added vitamins and mineral is a MUCH better choice.

I would NOT personally have Orps on only 15% protein feed and not the older ones on layer. Let me share my reasons... Orpington are dual purpose, heavy bodied and feathered birds. 16% is the MINIMUM recommended to maintain light bodied birds like leghorn in laying condition. Also feathers are made of 90% protein and its' amino acids. >4% calcium has been shown it *can* (doesn't mean will) cause gout and even kidney failure if fed LONG term to birds NOT in lay such as molters, roosters, juveniles, and broody's. (usually a genetic predisposition accentuated by too many treats or wrong feed)For this reason... because I raise dual purpose birds and multiple life stages are always in my flock... my preference is a flock raiser or grower with 18-20% protein and offer the extra oyster shell on the side for the layers (since these feeds only have about 1% calcium) so other birds might sample but won't overdose on a regular basis... or rather not be able to avoid the calcium they don't need.

BOSS does have protein.. but it also loaded in fat. The general rule of thumb regarding treats... is not more than 10% of their total daily intake.

I was told by the state poultry vet the NOT to mention what I am shipping. Even though the get the same thing shipped by fed EX regularly, they said it may just make some people (employees) squirmy. Here is the link for packaging guideline help...
https://www.backyardchickens.com/threads/how-to-send-a-bird-for-a-necropsy-pictures.799747/

ETA: Higher protein diet helps my birds get through molt easier per the whole feather story I already told you. Not all proteins are created equal though... amino acids in animal protein are partly key.

 

[Isaiah53]

Sorry for your loss. I don’t understand using the ivermectin for 3 days and again later for multiple treatments. Usually it is used once, and again in 14 days. Panacur is safe, but why did he have you use it for 5 days treatments 3 times? Normally for the usual chickens worms, it is given 1/4 ml orally, then repeated in 10 days. For dangerous rare worms (capillary worms) it is given 5 days in a row. Were you using a similar dosage? I just think there may have been too many drugs used. A necropsy through a regional poultry college is a good way to diagnose an illness if you lose another bird. Here is a link for your necropsy lab—all birds should be refrigerated and shipped promptly:
https://www2.gov.bc.ca/gov/content/...ls-and-crops/animal-health/pathology-necropsy

Ivermectin was 3 mls in 4 litres of water over 2 days total then discard the 3rd day 3 mls in 4 litres then discard. The follow up is required (as I understand) for eggs that hatch between doses to kill the new lice.

Panacur was for the possible treatment of tapeworm done for 5 days twice Not 3 times. It is 4.5 gms of panacur crystals in 5 litres of water per day for 80 birds. Once it's gone fresh water is given. So, only two treatments of ivermectin (I've read 10 days between both treatments). And 2 treatments for panacur (the last dose was today for the 1st treatment the 2nd treatment would be 3 weeks from today).

My vet has worked with chickens as I mentioned before. His concern was me seeing a worm in one dropping and knowing the previous owner had never wormed figured now would be a good time to worm for tapeworms.

 

[Eggcessive]

Panacur is not the best treatment for tapeworms. For those the best thing to use is a product with praziquantel, such as Equimax horse paste. Droncit tablets contain praziquantel as well. Valbazen can be used for several days. Some of those are not available in Canada. It is really best to get a fecal test to know what worms are present. Tapeworm segments (or large segments) can be seen in droppings with the eye, as well as roundworms. Other worms and their eggs cannot be seen. For lice, I would use a permethrin product once and again in 10 days. Here is a good video of tapeworm segments moving around in droppings:

 

[Isaiah53]

Orpington specifically have been known to get fatty liver disease.

Also that whole corn before they go to bed is a myth perpetuated by people who don't understand... a calorie is a calorie... and that is how chickens get their ENERGY to support the natural processes. Feathers are their down jackets to keep them warm. Giving calories from nutritious feed instead of high fat or high carb things which have NO added vitamins and mineral is a MUCH better choice.

I would NOT personally have Orps on only 15% protein feed and not the older ones on layer. Let me share my reasons... Orpington are dual purpose, heavy bodied and feathered birds. 16% is the MINIMUM recommended to maintain light bodied birds like leghorn in laying condition. Also feathers are made of 90% protein and its' amino acids. >4% calcium has been shown it *can* (doesn't mean will) cause gout and even kidney failure if fed LONG term to birds NOT in lay such as molters, roosters, juveniles, and broody's. (usually a genetic predisposition accentuated by too many treats or wrong feed)For this reason... because I raise dual purpose birds and multiple life stages are always in my flock... my preference is a flock raiser or grower with 18-20% protein and offer the extra oyster shell on the side for the layers (since these feeds only have about 1% calcium) so other birds might sample but won't overdose on a regular basis... or rather not be able to avoid the calcium they don't need.

BOSS does have protein.. but it also loaded in fat. The general rule of thumb regarding treats... is not more than 10% of their total daily intake.

I was told by the state poultry vet the NOT to mention what I am shipping. Even though the get the same thing shipped by fed EX regularly, they said it may just make some people (employees) squirmy. Here is the link for packaging guideline help...
https://www.backyardchickens.com/threads/how-to-send-a-bird-for-a-necropsy-pictures.799747/

I'll be bringing them in to my vet for a necropsy
If he doesn't find anything we'll discuss sending it off to Abbotsford for tissue sampling.

And my mistake. My older birds are on Hi- Pro feeds layer pellets at 20% protein. Yes, there's a higher calcium at 5%. They also have access to a dish of crushed oyster shells for free feeding.
This one:
https://www.hiprofeeds.com/products/20-chicken-layer-pellets

My younger pullets (everyone under 18 weeks down to 7 weeks) are separated from them and are fed the 18% no calcium grower crumbles. I was considering changing to stage 3 pellets which has 15% protein for layers to be as they're not used as broilers and I didn't want to grow them too heavy/fast. There is a mix barnyards and Orpingtons. Are you suggesting an even higher percentage than 15 or 18%?

My chicks up to 6/7 weeks are fed 20% protein no calcium. They too are also separated from the other groups.

Several of the older ones about 3 years old (layers) are having a very light molt at the moment. Not a rough molt at all.

 

[Eggcessive]

It can be hard to know why they die without a necropsy. I have never had one done by a lab, but I will try to find out why mine die with a home necropsy. It is good to take pictures of the major organs, and some here can help with opinions. But a 3 year old hen can sometimes suffer from any one of the common laying or reproductive disorders. Molting time is very hard on them, a similar time of stress as is freezing weather. My chickens mope around, eat less, and just seem more distant during molt. Hopefully it was not related to anything you are doing. Some just can die fairly young. Sorry for your loss.

 

[EggSighted4Life]

My vet has worked with chickens as I mentioned before. His concern was me seeing a worm in one dropping and knowing the previous owner had never wormed figured now would be a good time to worm for tapeworms.

So, did he run ANY fecal float to check for worms or look at picture of the one you saw?

My concern is about a vet who won't recommend test to confirm what species should be treated. I don't discount his knowledge, but am wondering about why not run a simple test that is usually affordable when compared to all the treatments and with holding eggs... instead of treating a whole flock that may not need it... coccidia and many other things can be detected. It just doesn't make any sense to me... or maybe I'm missing something.

I probably would not be in a hurry to have a necropsy done on an aging hen who I didn't know how they were fed, actual age, and even the longevity of their line. I would definitely keep notes with dates, where they were found, what color feathers or how ever you identify them, and suspected possible causes in addition to any symptoms or anything else that might be relevant. That way you can kinda get a feel for what to expect out of the flock. You can also make note of who has how heavy of molt and if they quit laying and when they return type thing... I already see you likely have noted your exact dates and treatments, how you set up your post earlier.

The home necropsy, I have not yet attempted but am becoming familiar with what things should look like while butchering. I want to quickly mention, someone who did their own recently said they couldn't hold the camera while working on the bird. As pics of the organs are mentioned... you can set them aside for taking pics afterwards.