2 yr old rooster has gone psycho

[Ganjaroo]

This is an older post, but thanks for all of this info!! I have 23 hens/pullets of different ages and NO ROO! I'd like one to protect the flock, so now I'll pay a lot more attention to personality.

Thanks from way across the pond!

Welcome, MsRiderUp! Now I'm no expert, but just wanted to share the experience of deciding to keep my roo. I had originally decided to pick out 4 hens from some chicks we observed hatching at the school I work for. Well, I tried,.. but ended up with two roos. The roo I got rid of, showed meanness and aggression from a very early age. He'd grab the hens by the neck and throw them down, pecked, and had a crazed look in his eye. The final straw for him was when during the first hawk attack, HE was the first one to run into the house! lol. The roo I kept, stood out there and took the hawk on without question. Such bravery!! ..and that was the first of many hen saves. I had considered getting rid of both roos due to the fact that I'm not legally allowed to have them, but I was so impressed and surprised with his protecting abilities that I just couldn't give him up! Point being, THIS roo was the sweet, docile one of the two, yet turned out to be the best protector as well. Go figure! I'm sure this doesn't help you much, but just thought I'd share anyway.

 

[Ganjaroo]

Quote: ..and btw, there are many of our lovely cousins from across the pond on this thread, ..but I am in Michigan! I really should fill out a profile here, but just haven't got around to it yet.

 

[chooks4life]

Wow, this thread took off. Good points of view and experiences being shared.
Quote:
If he's slapping his wings together, like they do right before crowing or just when strutting around, that's normal for a rooster feeling healthy. Even hens will do it.

If he's raising his wings and flapping them as he moves away from you or past you, that's submissive behavior; it also indicates he's comfortable with you, not stressed by expectation of attack. Subordinates will make a mock 'panic' gesture to appease dominants, or at least reasonable and nonviolent dominants; you'll probably see it among yours when 'teenage' chooks or low-status hens/cockerels walk past a dominant animal. I've yet to see that gesture mean anything negative, whether it's the wing-slapping or flapping.

Best wishes.
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It's a serious concern for sure, I've known a few adults with permanent injuries from roosters or other violent animals they tried to manage. Generally they were male animals, and the people believed it was simply what male animals (or just hormonal animals) do, so they put up with it until they were forced to get rid of the animal. Different belief system I guess. But after the animal's gone the damage remains.

I used to think the same as most of the people on this thread, I get where they're coming from and their reasoning, but personally I found that at the end of the day, it didn't actually make sense and crucially, it didn't work. Just my experiences. I also tried what they're trying and thought along the lines of what they have expressed on the topic, once.

Quote: Wow, great post, chooks4life! Not sure which one you're referring to but thanks.

I have a rooster who is dinner waiting to happen. He is my only adult rooster and is a superb flock rooster--watchful for predators, able to teach ditzy Polish to move to a fence line when there is an alarm, and polite to the hens. I've kept him solely to protect my free range flock. He would be perfect if he wasn't aggressive to people.

He's an Ameraucana from a top breeder. Last year, I raised about five cockerels from that breeder: a blue, a splash, two wheatens and a blue wheaten. The wheatens breeding lines would have been completely separate lines from the blue and splash birds.

The blue and splash cockerels are/were quite people aggressive. The splash ended up in the freezer at about 9 months. The blue is a gorgeous specimen and I needed a rooster to guard the hens, so he is still alive. The blue wheaten was rehomed to my neighbor who since got rid of him because of "too many hormones" in the yard, as she put it. The two wheatens were culled at 9 months without showing any people aggression. They were the very bottom of the cockerel pecking order.

I have this one rooster with my free range flock who is only alive until the 7 four-month old cockerels from the same breeder are grown up enough to take over the role of flock protectors. I intend to grow out a few of these cockerels to use for breeding and showing. I've just recently integrated the juvenile Ameraucanas into free range flock (7 cockerels, 5 pullets). They are still off on their own and haven't yet been incorporated into the rooster's very small flock although he does watch them. I believe if something attacked them, he would come running.

I'm starting to worry about getting attacked in the face. I hate that I am basically abusing this animal because if he attacks, I will kick him, hit him with something or grab him and stuff his face into the ground like a rooster would do. Bottom line, this is animal abuse in my mind. I hate being afraid to walk around my property.

This paragraph of yours, above, is exactly why it's better for some people to simply cull aggression out; you shouldn't have to live like this.

Where do we draw the line between training and animal abuse? Unfortunately a lot of people are resorting to methods which, if observed by the casual stranger, could get the RSPCA/equivalent called on your place, get you into court and get your animals confiscated; it isn't actually legal as far as I'm aware, at least not in this country, to manage your roosters or any animals that way, or any way that involves outright violence.

Off topic slightly, some people teach their kids to do the same sort of rooster management, and one of the issues with training children to manage them with violence is that children can't accurately judge the situation and timing. Kids get known as animal abusers --- surely a terrible mark against their name and psyche ---- because 'they were just raised that way' --- nobody has time for that excuse by the time the social services or police have become involved.

People bring their children around my place and I never know which kids will make a beeline to attack the roosters. 'Managing' them. My roosters don't hit back, because genuinely good roosters simply never will... But the parents smile proudly as their kids brutalize your animals. It doesn't make for an easy conversation, especially because I generally immediately separate the children from my animals before explaining to the parents that that's 'not on'. Some people visit farms and think they can let their dogs out to massacre at will, let their kids out to meddle and harm indiscriminately, it's crazy... Ok, off topic, lol...

I abandoned that method, the 'alpha roo' role-playing game, as unjustifiably/pointlessly cruel after the violent/aggressive animals, male and female, that I 'managed' simply bred their tendencies on despite no longer acting on them due to management, or showing repressed versions of those behaviors...

I tried for several generations of each family line before I culled. Now I don't waste the time and resources, I cull. After adopting that management method, I haven't had to cull for the same issues since, so of course I'm quite the advocate for that method as it's worked brilliantly for me. I didn't try to rehabilitate violent chooks for too many years, though, safety is a serious issue. I gave them all multiple chances at first, but no longer do, only because I'm experienced enough now to know what certain behaviors mean, no matter how subtle they may be, and experience tells me basically all of them follow through.

I personally don't believe in keeping animals who require being abused to respect us. I'm not judging those who tried to 'speak the roosters' language' and dominate them as though the human is the alpha rooster, I've been there, you're there at the moment, plenty of people on this thread have either been there, or are stuck there. Theoretically it makes sense until you consider that there are good roosters who don't attack people for any reason, so why should you be acting like another cockerel or an inanimate object or whatever in order to avoid being attacked by your own animals? They're not truly stupid, they know you're not a chook and not an inanimate object. Some may think you're a chook, but those ones are too stupid to live. By 'too stupid' I mean 'dangerous', lol.

It's not a situation I'd put up with personally, being under threat in my own yard. You should never be living in fear of your own animals. Neither should anyone else have to live in fear or be at increased risk due to your animals or their immediate descendants.

Quote:
It's a risk for sure, they kill large dogs never mind minis. I don't have small dogs but wouldn't risk even my larger dogs on a violent rooster, I know which animals are more important to me, as unfair as that may sound. But by the same token the flock doesn't live in fear of the dogs, so it's actually fair enough in my opinion.

Quote:
Depends on the individual. I've had chicks still not yet dry from hatching which peek out from under their mother and utter the alarm call, the one you hear adult males and sometimes females use to tell everyone there's something strange and potentially dangerous present.

Most cockerels in my experience will try to step up to their duties basically around 6 months or older but plenty of mine have started a lot younger. It's not something I can give you a sure estimate on, sorry. Puberty occurs at different times, and develops at different rates, in different individuals, though there are usually some standards expected of certain breeds or family lines. The varying levels of instinct in different animals possibly has more to do with it than puberty, because the protective behaviors you see in adult roosters are also present in hens and even chicks to some extent.
Quote:
It's no easy fix or sure bet whatever you do, but culling him is obviously what I'd do in your situation; certainly it's the only sure fix for his aggression. Best wishes.

Quote:
Very much agree with that. Quality of life is a right of all, not just the rooster, while the hens and human/s live under fear and abuse.

It is why human communities have law enforcement and even people with poor reasoning skills intuitively know that jails have a place. It is also why I, like you, can't tolerate a bad animal on the property.

But reading your answer to Ganjaroo made me think of a question that I have that you may have experience with. I have a Light Sussex hen with a 'torn out saddle' (what would be the right choice of words for this problem?) and I know her to be aloof and much less personable than another identical bird (probably a full sister) that is calm and pleasant. I have possibly 4 or 5 birds with the damaged saddles out of a flock of 18 hens. Is it possible, or even likely, that the saddle damage is a result of a hen that the roo (there is only one in my flock) has to work harder to mount or that the roo simply doesn't like? If that were the case, is it reasonable to consider this as a possible evidence that they are not as desirable in the flock as the others?

This could be a stretch but it is a question that has gone through my mind.

Thanks

Not sure if you're addressing me, but will respond anyway, it might help...

First, you need to check your roosters' spurs. Some roosters have misaligned, misplaced, badly curved, wrongly angled spurs; as with the leg scales, the spurs are very relevant and there is a very definite 'right' way for them to be, and thousands of wrong ways, which cover the majority of birds any of us will ever see, unfortunately.

I culled misaligned spurs and leg scales (which are connected, part of the same issue) out of my flock, though often just by rehoming a male with hens I knew had good spur genes but which were being culled for other reasons; the roosters themselves were a risk to my hens, but not deliberately.

You will see many purebred examples which, like purebred anythings, often have chronic defects such as spurs growing into their own legs, growing vertically, or spiking them in the abdomens when they try to sit, so they can only stand to rest, never sit down. They can never perch in full comfort and I'd expect it contributes to certain males getting frostbitten toes in winter. If you can observe your rooster on the perch at night, use a torch and look under him to see how his spurs align, then you'll know for sure.

This is quite relevant because most roosters sit or approach this position when mating. The leg bones rotate as they move into a sitting position so that the spurs are facing each other horizontally, not pointed to the back of the bird. If they are facing one another when he walks, or he has to step over his own spurs, either de-spur or cull him to fix that, harsh as it may sound; originally I had a few who scarred the inside of their own legs just walking. They came from a purebred breeder, of course, lol...

When such a rooster dismounts, in the course of stepping off to the sides, he can disembowel or otherwise seriously injure the hens, who can then become very rooster-averse due to the pain, which can lead to him getting more flustered and frustrated and subsequently hurried, and clumsier when he tries to mate. I bred my chooks to being respectful of rejection as that's natural and saves the lives of hens and chicks in the free range setting. But that takes generations of work, years, and you most likely won't want to go that route immediately or even never, most people think the stressful coerced matings they see are what's natural for the species, but they're not, it's what we bred into them.

Anyway, if you do despur him, you will need to manage that trait in his descendents. If it's his spurs that are at fault, that is.

Don't worry about the 'aloof' hens; my best hens were pretty 'self-contained' and the roosters never minded. A willing hen, with enough instinct to invite matings and cooperate with them, who likes the rooster, will always cease being aloof long enough to mate. That's not your issue with the injured hens, I'd bet; your unusually high percentage of injured hens is likely due to something else, either aggression to hens during mating or bad spurs, are my top two guesses.

It might be that he's one of those very aggressive roosters who savages hens while he mates. I don't keep that sort, I've got hens too valuable to risk on that attitude, and that was another strong trait that took some extended culling out because the sons had it too; good roosters produce sons who don't go through that 'terrible teens' period whereas the nastier ones did, it was like their default reaction, completely different to the good cockerels who always retained social manners.

Some roosters never mate without ripping out feathers or deliberately spurring the hen; if he is aggressive to them you're best rid of him. Some roosters are good with hens until mating, when they damage her deliberately, it's apparently mixed mating and fighting instinct, likely due to some breed/family histories involving thousands of generations of 'bachelor' pens where the only mating a cockerel is going to achieve is a forcible mating of another male. The average male chook mates exactly like a female if mounted, complete with the complaining and getting into position, squatting, moving the tail feathers, etc, it's apparently more of a strong automatic response to stimuli than a deliberate decision for some. Not all though. The dumber ones are more likely to squat for mating if pressure is applied to their backs, but smart ones far less likely.

Some cockerels are clumsy so depending on his age that could be it.

Otherwise, no, harming a female while mating has absolutely nothing to do with her or her desirability or lack thereof; not sure if I understood your sentence there correctly (?).

A rooster who doesn't desire a hen will not mate with her, period, not mate with her and harm her all at the same time. I've had roosters let hens know they weren't welcome to associate with them (nonviolently of course) and they simply do not mate with those hens. As with my hen's selections of roosters to breed, I found my roosters' selections of hens to also be almost always verified as correct as shown in the results (offspring). If they don't want to mate with a certain animal, there is a good reason why.

Best wishes.

Quote: Can that happen with chickens? There are loads of medical reasons why dogs can turn aggressive - everything from rabies to thyroid problems. Are there chicken-equivalent diseases? Common illnesses where sudden aggression is actually a symptom? I realize that in the OP's case there were behavioral signs (recognized or not) indicating a long-term problem - and that's a breeding/temperament thing. I'm just asking about chicken illnesses/aggression because I'm new to chickens and know that I would probably miss any behavior/warning signs because I'm simply not knowledgeable enough about chickens (yet!).

There are always potential medical reasons, but in the case of poultry they tend to show their serious illness with less aggression and hiding, not the reverse. You may be onto something but it'd be incredibly difficult to verify. The aggressive birds I've known have always been in supreme health. Pets, not so much, I've never had any of my pets get unfriendly without there being an obvious reason as shown by physical symptoms.

Chickens are rarely worth as much to someone as a dog, and rarely worth as much financially, and finding a good vet who actually knows about chickens is not only unlikely for many, but well outside the realm of affordability for most of us. If we tested every aggressive cockerel who was in fine health and didn't show any symptoms, that'd be an awful lot of money.

Simpler and more efficient to cull, unfortunately, especially when you know that cockerel came from a violent family line.

Toxicity in chickens would be a likely bet, theoretically, because that turns many other species aggressive but I've dealt with many toxified chooks and none were aggressive. This forum comprehensively covers the common diseases and I've never seen abnormal aggression noted as a symptom, neither have I experienced it in mine.

I'm not discarding your idea, here, it's sound and is a standard rule of thumb for animals and humans in general. But the majority of chicken aggression is the result of breeding for it, just as the majority of nonaggressive chickens are the result of breeding against it; however your idea probably applies in some cases, but how to tell them from the rest?

Best wishes.

 

[6of6chicks]

There are always potential medical reasons, but in the case of poultry they tend to show their serious illness with less aggression and hiding, not the reverse. You may be onto something but it'd be incredibly difficult to verify. The aggressive birds I've known have always been in supreme health. Pets, not so much, I've never had any of my pets get unfriendly without there being an obvious reason as shown by physical symptoms.

Chickens are rarely worth as much to someone as a dog, and rarely worth as much financially, and finding a good vet who actually knows about chickens is not only unlikely for many, but well outside the realm of affordability for most of us. If we tested every aggressive cockerel who was in fine health and didn't show any symptoms, that'd be an awful lot of money.

Simpler and more efficient to cull, unfortunately, especially when you know that cockerel came from a violent family line.

Toxicity in chickens would be a likely bet, theoretically, because that turns many other species aggressive but I've dealt with many toxified chooks and none were aggressive. This forum comprehensively covers the common diseases and I've never seen abnormal aggression noted as a symptom, neither have I experienced it in mine.

I'm not discarding your idea, here, it's sound and is a standard rule of thumb for animals and humans in general. But the majority of chicken aggression is the result of breeding for it, just as the majority of nonaggressive chickens are the result of breeding against it; however your idea probably applies in some cases, but how to tell them from the rest?

Best wishes.

Thank you, this was very helpful! I wasn't trying to argue a medical defense, though.

I was genuinely just curious. I'm really new to chickens and don't even have a rooster. I had to google what a "spur" was! But all of this is very educational and I'm glad I stuck with the thread. It's given me a lot to think about!

 

[jajeanpierre]

Where do we draw the line between training and animal abuse? Unfortunately a lot of people are resorting to methods which, if observed by the casual stranger, could get the RSPCA/equivalent called on your place, get you into court and get your animals confiscated; it isn't actually legal as far as I'm aware, at least not in this country, to manage your roosters or any animals that way, or any way that involves outright violence.

This is something that is really bothering me.

I've studied the science of applied behavior analysis, and would be horrified if some of my instructors were ever to witness my interaction with this rooster. I did a couple of week-long workshops with the trainer who puts on the bird show at Orlando, Florida, for Disney's Animal Kingdom. He's a world renowned trainer who consults all over the world. The workshops were geared to parrot owners, and aggression is always an issue with parrots, especially male parrots. His philosophy is if a show bird shows aggression to him he will never work with the bird again. Others can often work with the bird, but he will not. He is making that decision because once started, aggression continues and escalates. I was shocked that one of the world's top animal trainers could not or would not train aggression out of one of his show birds.

I haven't had chickens long and this is my first experience with roosters. I am partly to blame because I misunderstood some early aggressive behavior (I thought he was tit-bitting for me, silly me).

I really appreciate your advice, Chooks4Life.

 

[jajeanpierre]

Thank you, this was very helpful! I wasn't trying to argue a medical defense, though.

I was genuinely just curious. I'm really new to chickens and don't even have a rooster. I had to google what a "spur" was! But all of this is very educational and I'm glad I stuck with the thread. It's given me a lot to think about!

Dogs don't generally "attack" for a medical disorder other than something like a brain tumor. Dogs might "bite" in response to pain or the chronic stress of pain. They might be more inclined to bite because they are crabby from not feeling well.

 

[chooks4life]

Thank you, this was very helpful! I wasn't trying to argue a medical defense, though.

I was genuinely just curious. I'm really new to chickens and don't even have a rooster. I had to google what a "spur" was! But all of this is very educational and I'm glad I stuck with the thread. It's given me a lot to think about!

Sorry if I gave you the impression that I thought you were some kind of apologist or whatever, I didn't intend that, I think it's a very valid and sound point you made. It's just the feasibility of it with poultry that is beyond me, lol. It's a genuinely valid idea though.

Best wishes.

This is something that is really bothering me.

I've studied the science of applied behavior analysis, and would be horrified if some of my instructors were ever to witness my interaction with this rooster.

Have any of them ever trained animals? Is it possible that you could pose them a hypothetical or real challenge here and see if they can come up with anything?

While what you're doing here is just following the standard last-ditch attempt at stopping the behavior, and there's plenty of people who recommend it, to the best of my knowledge nobody who has had it work permanently. I may be wrong, and surely there are some examples out there of a rooster who learnt his lesson the first time, and for all time, statistically speaking it must have occurred. But there's an awful lot of people who have tried it and had it fail, either way, which is not a good place for you to end up in, abusing then killing an animal if/when it fails to reform them. While you're only using the same 'communications' another rooster would, if it's abuse to you then that's something you'll have to live with and if it's not sitting well on your conscience, it's potentially harming you... Sounds weird maybe... But doing things we believe are wrong are detrimental to us, I believe.

If this is distressing you, stopping would be a wise idea, I think. There are nonviolent roosters out there, you don't need to go through this. Violence can escalate to the death of one of you, or permanent maiming or disfiguring; the rooster who attacked me first went for the face, from the ground he just leapt, didn't need to fly. That's a heck of a leap; luckily he didn't get to harm me, but it was close. He was never abused. He gave no warning. The only warning was in the fact that he came from human-aggressive stock and had shown excessive aggression to other poultry. If you're worried he will harm you, be done with him, please, it's a very legitimate threat. If you can't cull him yourself, no shame in that, someone would be glad to take him, and if you tried you may be able to find him a non-culling home, or at least one who will try to be such, but, I don't think he's worth it.

I did a couple of week-long workshops with the trainer who puts on the bird show at Orlando, Florida, for Disney's Animal Kingdom. He's a world renowned trainer who consults all over the world. The workshops were geared to parrot owners, and aggression is always an issue with parrots, especially male parrots.

His philosophy is if a show bird shows aggression to him he will never work with the bird again. Others can often work with the bird, but he will not. He is making that decision because once started, aggression continues and escalates. I was shocked that one of the world's top animal trainers could not or would not train aggression out of one of his show birds.

I think he's very right, and many animal trainers/breeders with quite illustrious proven track records, i.e. great working dog breeders and trainers, say the exact same thing. Same thing with those who train (and usually also breed) cattle, horses, etc, people who are famous for their ability to train animals tend to take a very strong stance against the violent animals; if a bull who rarely interacts with humans doesn't get an excuse pass for anything other than 'quiet' behavior, why does a rooster who has absolutely no fear of humans?

I too was originally one of those who thought to give the animal another chance, try everything before you give up. I have since learned it's not worth it; animals have their own minds, make their own choices, if they choose to be a certain way you will have to either let them be that way, or force them to stop somehow, and the forcing often descends into abuse because the animal is not willing and that leaves no other options --- not that abuse is much of a real option anyway. I too used to think it was too 'easy' or a 'quick fix' when people would just put animals down for violence, but my experiences have taken me a full circle to sharing their viewpoint.

The world's best producers of the finest working dogs, very experienced trainers and breeders, waste absolutely no time on dogs which show certain subtle negative traits, from puppyhood onwards, they simply get rid of them. The traits are very, very strong. You shouldn't have to work against its nature. It's either willing, or it's not. These people of all people are in ideal positions of knowledge, resources, and experience to train or manage the behavior --- but they simply refuse to. They've all got decades of experience behind that decision, and personally I bet they don't want to waste the rest of their lifetimes struggling to manage a few unwilling or aggressive animals when they could be devoting their time to great animals instead. I'd also bet they devoted time to the challenge of trying to make it work with aggressive animals, and gave it up as pointless.

Many animals are so anti-human, or so aggressively bent mentally, that you cannot train it out of them; training depends on the animal's cooperation to be successful, it's not some kind of straightjacket you wrestle them into, so if they're not willing, what can you do? Their violence is very often independent of cause or provocation, or their perception of provocation is not able to be amended. It's very often also independent of abuse, the nastiest animals I know have all been well-kept, sometimes spoiled which arguably is often detrimental, but many of them have been treated correctly in all ways. No abuse, well trained, well socialized, well kept, nothing lacking from the picture-perfect life the best of our knowledge prescribes for that species.

The majority of those to whom aggression is unacceptable cull it out, not attempt to manage it. The rest breed it on because they either believe it's inevitable, manageable, acceptable, or they like it as someone mentioned, some cultures value human-aggression and extreme violence in their males so select for those traits; Spanish bulls of the bullfighting breed are a good example. There's a judge on this forum who has stated that they like human-aggressive Games, too, and plenty of others who expect or value human aggression, and select for it by discarding males who aren't 'feisty' enough.

I haven't had chickens long and this is my first experience with roosters. I am partly to blame because I misunderstood some early aggressive behavior (I thought he was tit-bitting for me, silly me).

You really shouldn't blame yourself. It's incredibly unlikely to be your fault. Misunderstanding his tid-bitting makes no difference. If you had understood it, it still would make no difference to the outcome that I can think of. What reaction could you have made to change his mind about attacking you?

He didn't do that to communicate with you anything other than a threat. It was not an attempt to open a dialogue so to speak. It was one-sided, a warning, the foregone decision had already occurred in his mind; it was part of his pre-attack behavior. Roosters who do this are already approaching an intended victim and I've never seen it have anything to do with what the victim was doing --- in almost all cases the victim was minding their own business, not near other chooks. In the rest of the cases it was two roosters approaching one another and fake-tid-bitting with a view to fight. It's not a reaction to provocation other than if you're going to class your very existence as being provocation to the animal, which, for some, it definitely is. Chances are extremely high that his mindset was always operating in this way, viewing you as a future opponent.

Good roosters never fake tid-bit to humans like that; the fact that he would is serious, proof his mindset is unsafe. I've never seen a rooster change his mind once he's started that fake tid-bitting to an intended victim or opponent.

Threats and aggression towards humans are not automatic nor inherent behaviors of all roosters, just like cannibalism is not an inherent nor automatic behavior of all chickens; this is one of the biggest and most common misapprehensions about them, I believe. Some will, some won't; it is not a behavior all will exhibit 'given the right circumstances'.

Some will cannibalize even when not hungry, some will starve to death rather than cannibalize. Some will attack without ever having been abused, others will tolerate any amount of abuse and not attack.

There have been some studies conducted testing the efficacy of breeding traits like cannibalism and violence in and out of birds within around 7 generations, which I was always told is the average time it takes to remove or introduce a trait reliably, and I have always found that's true; the studies proved it was remarkably achievable.

My chooks don't react to red or other colors on people. Other people's chickens will attack them when they see those colors, as noted in some other posts. They're probably also likely to commit cannibalism if the sight of red inspires rabid pecking. Again, this isn't how all chickens are. Neither red, nor protein deficiency, are the actual triggers of cannibalism, it was an underlying trait that was always present in the bird that exhibits it. I'm defining cannibalism here as that committed on living birds not for example in the case of a chook who lives outside a processing plant where perhaps chicken guts are thrown around and left. Attacking and consuming another living chicken is not the same thing.

I've gotten chooks from some far-out places, and some very bad ones too; one place I got about a dozen birds from turned out to be a meth dealer's place. Those birds were absolutely hysterically terrified of people, and had been abused. Not one bird of that whole varied group has produced a violent descendant, though surely of all my flock they had the most reason, they'd been kept for many generations in that place.

I also got about a dozen birds from a lady who never abused her animals, but who tolerated them abusing her, and these ones were of course human-aggressive and so were their descendants for a good few generations. The 'cause' is irrelevant if the animal chooses not to attack. It's the animal's response, their choice, that is the actual cause of the violence. People understand not victim-blaming among human society yet many think it's all justified in animal society, lol... It's very rarely justified and reflects at least as much on the attacker as on the victim, actually more so. Some animals are more likely to attack than others; I believe if the animal can be encouraged to attack it was never that far off it; perhaps its family line was on the receding side of having violence bred out of them, and encouraging the trait by stimulating it in a predisposed bird caused it to resurface --- but the final call on that remains the individual birds' decision. It can be bred out but it's dangerous and time consuming.

Those roosters who gradually descend into attacking people almost always showed some subtle warning signs. A 'jealous' rooster for example is a warning sign in itself. You must be able to handle your flock safely, for their sakes, as well as yours. Any chicken which attacks you or the animal you're holding is a liability. Their offspring are also more likely to attack you.

Your flock either respects you without you doing anything to enforce the respect, or they don't and probably won't, no matter what you do to try to enforce respect. I prefer their trust, positive association and goodwill, not their fear, dislike and distrust. Aggressive animals in my experience are more often that way due to a familial predisposition than what has been done to them. With the smarter animals like dogs you can certainly train many to become aggressive but even then there are many dogs who simply will not become aggressive, not matter how abusive their owners are.

I really appreciate your advice, Chooks4Life.

You're welcome, I hope you find what works for you, whether it's as per my suggestions/experience or contrary to it.

Best wishes.

 

[papun5880pr]

I hope this will help. First let me tell you that your rooster won't change his attitude. I have been raising chickens, specially roosters since I was a kid and now I am 56. II keep them on separate pens to avoid fights but my favorites are always on the loose. They are very territorial when to hens and chicks are around. Is in their nature to be like that. But there is a time when they grow older enough to "demand" territory and will defend it the best they can . I am sorry to tell you that won't change. I advice to cut/trim the spurs to avoid major injuries and if they are big they can hurt a child. If you like some chickens with a lesser aggressiveness go for BANTAMS. And if you try to kick them to avoid attack that will get them more aggressive. Is the job of the rooster to keep things going alright in the chicken coop so if you can handle it is ok then. If you cut the spurs you will only get pecked and not injured. We can try some animal behavior treatment. Get a big cooking pot and vegetables and sit down and tell him that if he keeps on with the attitude he will be the next in the cooking pot! If it doesn't work , then a chicken stew is on the menu for the week. Be careful with children as they can get really hurt. My roosters are over 15 pounds in weight and that is a big contender for A CHILD.I just tried to help. Trust me when I say that the attitude won't change.

 

[aleta hungarian]

WOW, YOU CHICKEN PEOPLE ARE AMAZING, THE TWO YEAR OLD ROO CONVERSATION WAS WONDERFUL. I HAVE BEEN RAISING CHICKENS FOR ALMOST 20 YRS AND YOU TWO CHICKEN PEOPLE HAS EXPLAINED SO MUCH AND HAVE BEEN SO HONEST AND GIVEN REAL TRUE INFO. THANK YOU. I HAVE BEEN AN SUBCRIBER TO "THE POULTRY CONNECTION' MANY YEARS AGO, AND HAVE FOUND THIS SITE JUST LATELY. THE OTHER HAS GONE TOO TECHY FOR ME AND I CANT DO IT. BYC ALSO ANSWERED A LOT OF QUESTIONS LAST NIGHT ON EGG LAYING AND ROOSTING.
THANKS AGAIN, KEEP UP THE GOOD WORK ALL YOU WONDERFUL CHICKEN PEOPLE. HAVING ROOS BEFORE, I HAVE NEVER HAD AN AGGRESSIVE ONE, AND HAD FOUR AT A TIME WITH JUST TEN OR SO HENS. THEY DIDNT ABUSE THE HENS TOO MUCH BY BREEDING EITHER. THEY WERE BRAVE AND RAN WAY BIGDOGS AWAY AND CHICKEN HAWKS.

MY BABY ROOSTER DIED, SO I NEED ONE FOR MY NEW GIRLS BORN APRIL 10 2014. ANY ADVICE ON HOW TO INTRODUCE A NEW CHICKEN, THAT HAPPENS TO BE A ROOSTER WOULD SO MUCH BE APPRECIATED.

HAVE A WONDERFUL SUMMER AND JUST WAIT AND WAIT AND WAIT FOR THAT FIRST SWEET TINY LITTLE EGG.
ALETA

 

[jajeanpierre]

Have any of them ever trained animals? Is it possible that you could pose them a hypothetical or real challenge here and see if they can come up with anything?

All my studying of Applied Behavior Analysis came from animal trainers and a professor of psychology who taught a class geared to animal training.

In a nutshell, Applied Behavior Analysis analyses/quantifies/records the whole sequence of a behavior, from the Antecedent (what triggers the behavior), the Behavior itself, and the Consequence (to the leaner) of the behavior. The Consequences either increase, decrease, or don't influence the behavior being continued.

So, from an ABA point of view, looking at my rooster attacking, it would look something like this:
Antecedant: My proximity or my making a loud noise by calling dogs, whistling for parrots or banging anything.
Behavior: Fake Tid-bitting, full on attack, rushing when my back is turned.
Consequence: Everything from me grabbing a light bamboo pole, chasing him and whacking him with it, walking into him, catching him and doing the usual recommended things.
Then the question is, what is the frequencey and intensity of the behavior (attacking)? Well, it has escalated, so I can see from my own simple analysis that my increasing aggression simply doesn't work and might even be making the problem worse, so I should simply stop.

Punishments are things that decrease a behavior. If they don't decrease the behavior, then they are just abuse. That's what I was always taught. I was also taught that if you were going to use something like punishment, you had better make it so severe that the animal would never ever do that behavior again. Think of how quickly and thoroughly a child leans to never touch a red hot stove element after one touch.

Of course, there are a whole host of negative side effects to punishment. They include but are not limited to increased aggression and avoidance behavior (I wish I had gotten that side effect!).

When I first had my rooster problems no one had any solutions except violence against the rooster. Perhaps I could have tried to train him to do a behavior that he couldn't attack me at the same time as doing the behavior, but in my opinion he was just too motivated to attack and that would have trumped any desire for a goody that he would have earned for doing a behavior.

I honestly think you are correct that it has a genetic basis. In the past, all roosters lived on farms with farmers and children running around. A nasty rooster would NOT have been tolerated. Now, breeding birds has become largely commercialized and temperament doesn't matter. Dr. Temple Grandin has written articles on how commercial breeding practices have allowed "rapist roosters" as she calls them to be used in a breeding program. They are not culled from a breeding program because of their rude behavior.

You've brought up some interesting points, Chooks4life.