2 yr old rooster has gone psycho

[Stiggy]

haha, strutting his stuff showing off his muscles ? lol

 

[centrarchid]

[COLOR=800080]I have to agree here @centrarchid
 I think while most of this information is correct this is in itself incorrect. Like you have said a broody hen will do almost anything to protect her babies or eggs. if you were to switch this round on humans then it would be the same for most mothers who have young or are carrying young. Its a hormonal things and is to be expected from them. it shows that they are being good mothers who want to protect their babies at all costs. generally its also a temporary thing as when the chicks get older the hen calms down and all is well again. My Silkies are all very placid and while you cannot pick all of them up to cuddle or anything they are not aggressive. however when they become broody their attitudes change, none have attacked me as I am not a threat to them but if someone else gets to close without me being there then they do get stroppy. and fair enough as well. they are just doing their job to protect their young. by the time the babies get to 8 weeks old the hen Is back to normal . Like you have said there is a huge difference between rooster aggression and broody hen aggression, which is also true. however if I was to get rid of every aggressive animal then I wouldn't have any hens since they all have or will go broody and that would be a giant waste and pointless.[/COLOR]

You need to re-read my post carefully. Your responses do not jive with my statements or you are responding to someone else.

 

[Stiggy]

You need to re-read my post carefully. Your responses do not jive with my statements or you are responding to someone else.

I was talking about your statement about your game hens.
"My gamehens in the default state are very aggressive in the defense of their young. They give everything they have trying to repel you and go after your face as well. They would also chase me as a small child all the way back to house in effort to retrieve chick I stole. Additionally they would recruit the father gamecock and he would attack as well. Such was their genetically programmed default mode"
And then I was being general about broody hens. This I assumed was something along the lines of what you were meaning when you said it was their mothering default mode.
Thus being said most animals have a default mode when they have young .

After that I went off in a general sense about the Broody mode hens seem to have. And about the comments made earlier by someone else. However I couldn't be bothered going through 5 pages and quoting everything at once especially as much of it has already been discussed.

 

[centrarchid]

My statement you quoted was intended to be taken in the context of what was written immediately after it in same post. Bringing statements together from different post and different lines of thought, even when by same poster breaks down efficacy of communication. Bringing in statements from other posters compounds issue making so you make no sense.


My intent was to indicate the birds have default mode related to aggression / fear that is easy to manipulate. I generally manipulate it an manner resulting in a more desirable repertoire of behavior but that is is also possible to take it in the other direction, especially as realized with roosters. The way we interact with birds (nurture) can influence the end product as much as nature (genetics).

 

[Stiggy]

Very well then. Clearly I used it as a statement towards what I assumed was the current discussion at the time ( behaviour in roosters and broodies ) While I disagree when you say that bringing in different statements is a bad idea I can see why you think so. However as it were I was bringing it in because I thought that it was a good point, one that should be further discussed and thought about, when thinking aggression in animals, and infact all of the species.
Either way it was not made out of nasty intent, rather just an agreement on a point which I felt was important.

 

[chooks4life]

Chooks4life your assessment of post you quoted in your post # 31 above is very inaccurate and the pattern relates to your ignorance of your husbandry impacts on subsequent behaviors or your birds.

All this just reinforces my point about it being the breeder who is at fault more than the breed or treatment of them.

Which is irrelevant because they are domesticated, not wild. They don't even represent the species' true wild instincts, just modified remnants. You can get games that attack people and games that don't, just like with any other breed.

That does not make me rethink my position, sorry. I would need some comprehensive information about your anti-aggression projects' results to rethink my position. You're talking about taking up to a decade to 'manage' the aggression in any given individual... How does this random snippet of info about you hand-rearing chicks fit into that? You talk about long-term success, but I don't see anything like it showing in your posts.

Now, to 'make you rethink your position': I leave my chicks with the mothers. I handle them as well as the mothers, with the mothers around, and I can walk off with the chicks anytime I please without being attacked for it. The hens don't attack me, the chicks don't panic when I handle them or their mothers, I don't need to break up the family unit to make them well behaved.

What you call chicken aggression is a lot more complex than you realize.

We've bred every other strong familial instinct in and out of various breeds, there's nothing magical about family-protective aggression which makes it the one instinct we have not altered or cannot alter. We've altered mating instincts themselves, never mind more abstract social ones like 'defending' your family from the hand that feeds, lol!

It is also easy to manipulate in a positive or negative manner. I can make a male or female chicken more aggressive largely because they remember past experiences. You and so many others are going to half to recognize your birds behavior is also very much a function of what you have done and do currently do around them.

You would be surprised how hard it is to manipulate a truly good animal into attacking a human. It can actually be impossible with many.

All this applies to roosters as well.

My methods are aimed at getting a whole flock that can free range peacefully with one another and humans, no aggression, and since that's worked, I'm keen to share the details so others can achieve it too. Not everyone wants to keep permanently caged birds or live in fear of constant assault. If it works, I'm not sure you can describe it as being incorrect yet describe your methods as successful. By the definition we're using, they're not.

You're certainly not about to sway me to taking up your methods, and no doubt you wouldn't even consider mine. Our aims are different and so are our beliefs. The purpose of this thread is to find the best way to deal with a human-aggressive rooster, so if you have some actual solutions, I bet the OP would love to know. I'm not sure 10 years of management is what they're after but each to their own and best wishes with it.

When I state long-term, that implies broodfowl and that can mean an individual will persist 5 to 10 years, sometimes longer. Birds kept through 4 years can be considered to be very valuable and they all have considerable potential for longevity.

That's unacceptable to me. Good for you, I guess, if that's what you want. It doesn't sound like success by any definition of the term. But clearly your philosophy, and mine, are worlds apart. Each to their own.

Best wishes. I'm sure your birds are very handsome, not that I'd ever trust them.

I have to agree here @centrarchid I think while most of this information is correct this is in itself incorrect. Like you have said a broody hen will do almost anything to protect her babies or eggs. if you were to switch this round on humans then it would be the same for most mothers who have young or are carrying young. Its a hormonal things and is to be expected from them. it shows that they are being good mothers who want to protect their babies at all costs.

By that line of logic, a rooster is also entitled to assault you merely for going near the hens; it makes about as much sense. You grab a chick, it shrieks, mother is upset; you grab a hen, she squawks, rooster is upset. Same difference.

Both parties, if human aggressive by inclination, will then decide they'd best stop you approaching the animals you grab. I solve this problem by not breeding those with human aggressive inclinations. Part of (good) animal husbandry involves of necessity handling them, sooner or later. It's always something that ends up being done and often under duress, i.e. in emergency situations where you don't have the time or ability to separate the aggressive ones first. Or, if you've bred it long enough, you don't know which ones of your flock you can safely turn your back on. It does tend to erupt without warning. 'They never did it before' is one of the common things people say after being attacked.

If your animals aren't able to be handled, if they don't trust you, this severely increases risk of damage and stress and death during handling, whether because you're being attacked, or the mother attacks her own chick because you've grabbed it (plenty do), or the rooster attacks the hen because you've grabbed her (plenty do) or because you're carrying a sick/hurt bird and another one attacks you while your hands are full and gives you a face flogging, or because you bent over in the yard to pick something up, or... The list goes on, and on, and on.

I'm sure you can see how this makes dealing with your flock or even walking in your own backyard fraught with danger presented by birds you most likely haven't done anything wrong with. Those with no children to worry about and nerves of steel often persist longer, but that doesn't make it a winning method, so to speak.

The aggression to humans they offer without true reason, just 'hormones' (my favorite excuse as to why roosters turn vicious, lol --- it's a mentality more than an automatic hormonally based reaction) is going to be passed on to sons as well as daughters.

Initially I also tolerated mother-aggression, thinking it was probably a good thing. Subsequently I have discovered otherwise; all it truly indicates is aggression towards humans. If she's attacking you, she's human-aggressive, not necessarily predator-aggressive. Do you go out into your yard and kill chicks in front of the mothers daily? I'd bet not. Yet you're being attacked.

My best mother hens defended their chicks most ably against all manner of predators, but never offered violence to humans. The worst mothers, who also were most likely to be over-defensive, caused chick deaths and were not worth the bother genetically or by any other measure, and I ended up culling them once I noticed the correlation. They were no loss.

generally its also a temporary thing as when the chicks get older the hen calms down and all is well again. My Silkies are all very placid and while you cannot pick all of them up to cuddle or anything they are not aggressive. however when they become broody their attitudes change, none have attacked me as I am not a threat to them but if someone else gets to close without me being there then they do get stroppy. and fair enough as well. they are just doing their job to protect their young.

Again, this is just an example of what you allow and what you believe is right shaping your flock. I have noticed the same traits you mention with Silkies, and have known some people who are purebred Silkie breeders who are reinforcing those traits, generation after generation, ensuring they turn human-aggressive during certain times. The same is true of some roosters. Some people think it's preferable that they attack humans when hens are around, or when hens are brooding, etc, but since they are domesticated and trust us and know we feed them, I won't tolerate them attacking without true provocation, and almost nothing really is. So what if I cull a few birds every now and then? I don't do it while they're watching, and I don't capture the bird distressingly in front of them, I remove it calmly and peacefully at night from the main coops. Its death is quick and clean. Their only true interest in it is for tidbits of guts.

For the sake of the kids, and the kids of people who get birds from me, I won't breed a male who attacks for whatever reason. Nor a female with the same mindset. It's a mentality, not some kind of automatic involuntary response. We have ensured it is maintained in some lines but bred it out of other lines. What makes you the 'predator' or subordinate chicken in that hen's eyes? If she truly thought you were some terrible predator, chances are she would be terrified when she sees you, not just angry, and she might attack you, but then she'd gather her chicks and run when she realized she couldn't defeat you. None of this is happening in pretty much any domestic chicken attacks on humans. They're not terrified, they have no legitimate fear or traumatic past experience, they simply view you as fair game. I've dealt with abused animals and they're much less keen to have a go at a human than pampered little napoleons are.

by the time the babies get to 8 weeks old the hen Is back to normal . Like you have said there is a huge difference between rooster aggression and broody hen aggression, which is also true.

Not sure there is any huge difference there; they're both family defense instincts which have long been bred out of some breeds yet perpetuated in others and even bred into worse forms. Unjustified human aggression doesn't have any huge differences in its spectrum of expressions. If you're outright being attacked, it's not acceptable whether it's a hen or a rooster.

however if I was to get rid of every aggressive animal then I wouldn't have any hens since they all have or will go broody and that would be a giant waste and pointless.

All my hens have gone broody, or will, and they don't attack humans, but they defend their chicks just fine against anything else. Attacking humans is not some automatic thing all mother hens do. Mine don't. It only took a few generations of selecting for non-aggression to humans; not up to a decade of management per animal as per centrarchid's methods.

It really is all down to what suits you and your animals, of course.

For those who are starting threads asking how to stop aggression, though, replies about tolerating it or rationalizing it aren't going to help much when we do know that not all chooks are human-aggressive. It's not inevitable. I don't believe it's even justifiable in almost any of them.

Best wishes to everyone.

 

[rottnwarrior]

My rooster has been fine ever since then. He is back to being my little buddy and is nice to everyone now. It's like a child, you can't discipline them once and expect it to last forever. I'm sure he will try again and he will get the same result. Yes I do have children and yes I WILL always be around. They only freerange when I am with them. Otherwise they stay in the run. I spend time with them and when I sit outside like right now, they all take turns coming to me and talking a little then go about their business. Even he comes up for a little pat on the head now and then. I don't manage with fear or aggression. I'm a grown man and I know this little 10 pound chicken can't hurt me no matter how hard he tries. And now he knows that too. He is destined to be in the stewpot but until then, he is a great protector and keeps the hens in line. And let's face it... If I had to keep track of 15 women... I'd lose my mind now and then too lol.

 

[centrarchid]

[COLOR=000080]That's unacceptable to me. Good for you, I guess, if that's what you want. It doesn't sound like success by any definition of the term. But clearly your philosophy, and mine, are worlds apart. Each to their own.[/COLOR]

[COLOR=000080]Best wishes. I'm sure your birds are very handsome, not that I'd ever trust them.[/COLOR]

Spend more time getting to know your birds. You will get to actually develop a working understanding of them, not just a very idealistic concept you currently have.

 

[centrarchid]

Is this really necessary?

At some point accuracy most be involved. Management in a way that people and birds are not harmed requires sound knowledge. Some of what Chooks is stating is definitely not based on such and gives less experienced folks inclinations to have unrealistic expectations about about behaviors of their roosters and chickens in general.

 

[Bethel3330]

At some point accuracy most be involved. Management in a way that people and birds are not harmed requires sound knowledge. Some of what Chooks is stating is definitely not based on such and gives less experienced folks inclinations to have unrealistic expectations about about behaviors of their roosters and chickens in general.

I believe you missed my point.
I didn't read this whole thread because of the argumentative nature of it. I wonder if we lost the OP as well? Lol
There's no cause to be rude. There's room for various viewpoints.