** 2017 New Drug Law - What Are Your Plans? **

But, Bee, even then, sometimes, things come up that may call for antibiotics. It is not just a management problem. Mine are quite healthy and managed well. I do not have contagious disease in my flocks, have not in all the years I've owned chickens, and if I did, I would not treat that nor do I advocate anyone else do so, either. But, crippling the livestock owner by taking away ALL our choices is not the way to go.
Pneumonia is contagious, as evidenced by not one but a few of your birds getting it. Treating it may have saved those few animals but that doesn't keep them from getting it at all, nor getting it in the future...so it does come down to a management problem. Illness happens and everyone knows that, but animals that are prone to contract it and spread it to others don't have to be kept in the flock or the gene pool.

Building better immune systems and healthier stock can eliminate most illness, but medicating it doesn't do anything towards that goal. There are MANY farmers not using antibiotics on their farms or they will lose their organic status. They choose to cull immediately any animals that show illness, cutting their losses while building towards overall flock/herd health.

I haven't had a single illness in the past 40 yrs that "called for antibiotics". That's not a brag, there's a point to that statement...if you determine you will use ATBs as a solution to a problem, then it calls for it. If you determine you will use more sustainable methods to solve that problem, then it doesn't call for them.

ALL their choices are not removed when the ATBs are removed, just the ones they favor most. There are many choices still left to manage livestock and keep them healthy without using oral or IM/IV ATBs. Yes, animals will die and that's okay...in that manner the weak are removed, the strong are left behind to make more strong animals. Wild chicken flocks, wild cattle, wild horses are all thriving and reproducing without the benefit of ATBs. Judicious culling of one's own flock can produce a flock that is much like the wild ones...stronger, healthier and more sustainable for the future. And not just through culling, but in overall conditions in which they live, one can influence the overall health of the environment wherein they live, encouraging healthier soils, healthier diets, healthier air in the coops, etc. It's a varied and ongoing approach to a single problem...flock health.
 
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Sorry for your loss. FWIW, Tractor Supplly still sells injectable oxytetracyline and injectable penicillin OTC.
Really @casportpony ?!?!
Why are these not on the ban list.....aren't they antibiotics??
Only water soluble antibiotics and antibiotics added to feed require a prescription or VFD, and even though fish antibiotics are water soluble, they aren't "labeled" for use in food animals, so the law doesn't apply to them.


And not all water soluble/feed antibiotics on the list, bacitracin (BMD) is one of those, and the only wormer on the list is hygromycin B, and that's because it *is* an antibiotic.
Thanks...yeah, knew about the hB.

Doesn't make sense that all the water soluble were not banned<scratches head>
 
Pneumonia is contagious, as evidenced by not one but a few of your birds getting it. Treating it may have saved those few animals but that doesn't keep them from getting it at all, nor getting it in the future...so it does come down to a management problem. Illness happens and everyone knows that, but animals that are prone to contract it and spread it to others don't have to be kept in the flock or the gene pool.

Building better immune systems and healthier stock can eliminate most illness, but medicating it doesn't do anything towards that goal. There are MANY farmers not using antibiotics on their farms or they will lose their organic status. They choose to cull immediately any animals that show illness, cutting their losses while building towards overall flock/herd health.

I haven't had a single illness in the past 40 yrs that "called for antibiotics". That's not a brag, there's a point to that statement...if you determine you will use ATBs as a solution to a problem, then it calls for it. If you determine you will use more sustainable methods to solve that problem, then it doesn't call for them.

ALL their choices are not removed when the ATBs are removed, just the ones they favor most. There are many choices still left to manage livestock and keep them healthy without using oral or IM/IV ATBs. Yes, animals will die and that's okay...in that manner the weak are removed, the strong are left behind to make more strong animals. Wild chicken flocks, wild cattle, wild horses are all thriving and reproducing without the benefit of ATBs. Judicious culling of one's own flock can produce a flock that is much like the wild ones...stronger, healthier and more sustainable for the future. And not just through culling, but in overall conditions in which they live, one can influence the overall health of the environment wherein they live, encouraging healthier soils, healthier diets, healthier air in the coops, etc. It's a varied and ongoing approach to a single problem...flock health.
NO, it is NOT contagious. And why did you make the assumption that they passed it around anyway? I did not say that. A bird with pneumonia eight years ago doesn't pass pneumonia to the rooster last week, good grief. This is a situational pneumonia we're talking about- I did NOT say more than one got it at one time, I said a couple over 12 years, each with an explanation. No one passed it to anyone. I said one AT A TIME, none related to the other. And you did not ask the situation that precipitated it, but that probably does not matter to you. You just kill them all, I'm guessing. I've been accused of that myself for simply saying not to treat contagious disease, but a little common sense goes a long way toward not losing the birds unnecessarily.

As for a situation that causes pneumonia, a bird who is caught out in a rainstorm in cool weather and gets soaked to the bone and chilled may contract pneumonia. It is NOT contagious and CAN be treated. I have that from an excellent veterinarian I know who treated two young birds of a friend who that very thing happened to. They were in a cage outside and a sudden storm came up when she was not home. In two days, they both had compromised breathing. It was related to the situation, one did not get it from the other. He was adamant that they would be fine and they were.

Your "sustainable" solution seems to be to take the head off every bird with a symptom, and not to figure out HOW it occurred. If you want to do that, that's your business, but, IMO, that is not sustainable, IMO, that is just the lazy, easy way. If you want to, fine, but not everyone must do it that way. I've known breeders who did that, but I'm not a breeder. I have pets mostly and they are not carriers of anything because I practice biosecurity. Yes, no one can see germs, not even you. And they're everywhere. If you have valuable birds and you just kill every one without trying to figure what is happening, IF it's even contagious, you never know what happened. So your statement that nothing happened in 40 years....so, never a sneeze, never a question about odd breathing, never a fungal infection, nothing is what you're claiming. Now, if you're saying not one disease that called for antibiotics because you just took the axe to them, that is sort of misleading. They can get pneumonia from accidentally aspirating a substance so of course, that is not a contagion.

I will cull for contagious illness, but I see no reason whatsoever to dismiss a bird that can be helped if it is not contagious. And injuries are not contagious. I would be an irresponsible owner if I didn't try to offset any possible infection for a wound. But, if you just want to kill them all, that's your business. I personally think it's a little extreme. As far as sustainable, how would you know what my management style is? You didn't ask and as far as I know, you don't follow my posts. Not sure the difference in us other than you use the axe more freely than I do, I would imagine.

ETA: Not to mention, if you cull your birds at 2-3 years old, of COURSE you won't see much necessity for any treatment of anything. They don't stay long enough. I have quite a few 7-10 year old hens, some still laying. So, naturally, I'd see more than someone who doesn't have birds that long.
 
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[CONTENTEMBED=/t/1146481/2017-new-drug-law-what-are-your-plans/60#post_17995419 layout=inline] [/CONTENTEMBED] Sorry for your loss. FWIW, Tractor Supplly still sells injectable oxytetracyline and injectable penicillin OTC.
Really @casportpony ?!?! Why are these not on the ban list.....aren't they antibiotics??
Only water soluble antibiotics and antibiotics added to feed require a prescription or VFD, and even though fish antibiotics are water soluble, they aren't "labeled" for use in food animals, so the law doesn't apply to them.
And not all water soluble/feed antibiotics on the list, bacitracin (BMD) is one of those, and the only wormer on the list is hygromycin B, and that's because it *is* an antibiotic.
Thanks...yeah, knew about the hB. Doesn't make sense that all the water soluble were not banned
Legally, I'm not sure how they could have included all of the fish and pigeon products... There are so many. Fish and pigeon antibiotics are cost prohibitive if one wants to medicate their flock. Heck, it's expensive even when treating just one bird, so maybe people will opt to find a veterinarian to work with because I think it will be less expensive in the long run? :idunno
 
Are fish or pigeon ones safe for chickens though? Sorry, stupid question, I guess pigeon ones are because they're birds, but are fish ones?
 

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