A BEE thread....for those interested in beekeeping.

[DearYvette]

Quote:
SamG347,

This are really good things to think about, some of which I wouldn't have thought of, at this stage. Thank you very much for mentioning them!

The hive I'm interested in buying comes with a "cut-out and repair bar" (http://www.thegardenhive.com/the-garden-hive-repair-bar/), which makes much more sense, with your talking about what happens when the comb collapses into the hive and how to "help" the bees, when I cause this to happen. The hive I'm considering also has built-in glass windows, which should allow me to observe and assess before troubling the hive at all. I can't imagine that having an observation window is "necessary," but for me it could be helpful, in terms of seeing comb/brood/honey/parasites without opening the hive and knowing which frames to harvest and which to trim and whether I want/need to go in, at all.

As you mention, there doesn't seem to be a one-size-fits-all solution, for any particular issue. It's immensely helpful to get the input of experienced bee-keepers, and I will most definitely join an apiary group in my area and enroll in workshops, when the time comes.

Having said that, top-bar hives seem sort of uncommon (?) and irrationally biased against by bee-keepers who have never used them. I appreciate hearing about the bias against them by people who have ACTUALLY used them (like you)...and none of you seem to be actually biased against them, per se. Depending on what you're after, there are pros and cons to a top-bar hive, just as there are with the Langtroth, as far as I can tell.

My objectives for wanting a top-bar hive are, in this order of importance:

1. To (help to) pollinate my chemical-free garden, naturally and organically
2. To harvest honey (when it make sense, for the bees) without lifting 40 to 60 or 80 pounds of anything
3. To manage my hive alone, without assistance, weight-lifting or otherwise
4. To not have to store extra pieces of equipment or frames or accessories in my imaginary storage shed
5. To use clean comb (as available from my honey harvests, when it makes sense for the bees) for making candles and things
6. To harvest honey without spending any $ on "extractors"...naturally-made stand-alone honey comb allows for "crush-and-strain," as opposed to having to "spin-down" pre-fab combs.

Langstroth hives seem to be more conducive to storing a boat-load of honey (e.g., up to 80 lbs per super?)... but, how much honey can one family consume in a year? (A commercial honey harvester would have utterly different needs and resources than I.) Langstroth hives bits are also consequently heavy...probably too heavy for me. In addition, the pre-fab comb-frame thingies that y'all use...don't they collect pollens and chemicals (picked up by the bees, in their travels)? When you harvest honey from re-used combs, aren't you harvesting these other accumulated things, as well?

Why is it bad to ask my bees to rebuild their combs from scratch, so I can have "cleaner" honey, even it means I don't have a squillion pounds of honey in a minute and a half? Yes, it means putting them to work. Yes, it means I'll need to be more patient in harvesting honey. But this patience pays off in having a cleaner annual harvest, no?

Yvette.

 

[DearYvette]

Quote:
SamG347,

Again, thank you for your input!

There are a whole slew of design considerations out there for top-bar-hives. All things being equal, this is still my preference, in terms of managing a hive without being able to lift an 80-lb box of honey. I defer to your real-life experiences with these things...and I've been studying colony-collapse and what might cause it, and how to possibly mitigate against these causal factors while maintaining chemical-free bees.

So far, CCD seems to be caused by a "perfect storm" of sorts. Stress affects immune function, in all animals. So, assuming that we're starting with relatively stressless bee husbandry...

1. Mites and beetles weaken the health of the hive, as well of the health of individual bees, which impacts the overall health of the hive, so a top-bar hive with a standard ventilated floor helps with this. Having a mite-resistant queen should help, too? These ladies are being bred, and these nucs are available. (Beetles can be trapped with a temporary olive oil trap, at floor level.)

2. Fungal infections (e.g., nosema) also weaken each bee and hive. This is all about ventilation. How much ventilation CAN a box provide, really? I don't know the answer. But a 4-foot box with a mesh floor should provide much more air flow (top bar) than a standard box with holes for openings (langstroth)?

3. On top of these things, colony collapse seems to also be related to viral activity. So, how do animals deal with virus loads? They die. OR, they're healthy enough, to begin with, that their immune systems attack back, and they live! And then they pass their hardy genes down to their babies.

So, hive health/strength, in a perfect world = stress is reduced (includes access to water and nectar); bees manage their mite and beetle loads (by flicking them to the floor, where they either fall out of the hive, or get trapped); lots of ventilation reduces fungal spores; happy, healthy bees resist viruses.

Seems like the floor-ventilated top hive is built for these and the langstroth is not?

I don't know. Just tossing it out there, for comparison.

Best,

Yvette.

 

[SamG347]

I try to run all screened bottom boards on my langstroths already. I have tried a hybrid topbar hive that could be supered with lang boxes. I will post some pictures later. This hive was pretty good but became difficult in managing and sooner than later the bees made it almost impossible to pull any frame out. The reason having frames that have been drawn of honey to put back in allows you to get a honey harvest in late summer/early fall with the bees having enough time to take the nectar they collect and put it back into the drawn comb. Versus the topbar which gets rid of the comb completely when honey is harvest and makes the bees use the nectar they would put into honey into building combs/making wax.

I also plan on getting more and more into QUEEN REARING and having frames really is going to aid me in this. I worked for a beekeeper for a year prior to starting up for myself. By the end of this season I hope to have 15+ hives and most of them with my own queens. Should be able to get a few hundred pounds of honey off this spring as well.

I really cannot answer about how much an ordinary family uses but once you start having fresh honey you will start supplementing it for sugar and putting it in cereal, ect.

The garden hive is nice but I definitely think you would like an 8 frame langstroth hive with medium supers. This makes the super and frame size all the same which allows for great interchangeability.

Don't get into the whole Italian vs. Russian deal either. If your going through any of the big name package suppliers you are getting mostly Italian mutts, only pure russian stock is purchased from breeders. Start with Italians in most cases you'll love them. I might have a few queens for sale later this summer...and possibly nucleus hives for langstroth.

 

[#1California Chick]

Sam

I really appreciate your explanations and help!!

I have a local bee keeper helping me start out. We have a longstroth. I have looked into the hive several times just to make sure that my new hive is doing OK. It seems to me to be the easiest way to start. I like the idea of setting hive on cement blocks. It looks like you have electric wire around your hive. What are you trying to keep out??

Thanks!

Cindy

 

[sgtmom52]

#1California Chick :

Sam

I really appreciate your explanations and help!!

I have a local bee keeper helping me start out. We have a longstroth. I have looked into the hive several times just to make sure that my new hive is doing OK. It seems to me to be the easiest way to start. I like the idea of setting hive on cement blocks. It looks like you have electric wire around your hive. What are you trying to keep out??

Thanks!

Cindy

Electric fence is used to keep out bear ~ or cows or horses if they have them in a pasture. Bears will tear them apart, eating the honey and bees. Cows and horses will rub on them, knocking them over.​

 

[SamG347]

I'm "trying" to keep out black bear. We have quiet a few around the mountain. Let me tell you right now if the bear is hungry enough the hives would have to be in a vault to keep them from getting them. Id would also like to say for people in colder climates...the biggest mistake you can do with beekeeping especially in winter is worry too much and continually open the lid to look in, etc. If they went into winter with enough honey...they should be fine. And at this point there is nothing you can do anyway. In CA though you might be getting close to some of your first vegetation blooms? So checking now wouldn't hurt...But I have no idea about managing hives in the west. I only know my PA blooms and temps.

Just got done emailing my jar supplier....my order is to be shipped end of Feb. I'm completely in the beekeepin mood!

 

[hiker125]

I attended an awesome beekeeping class last weekend. The organizer, Rob Greene, and his army of volunteers taught all the ins and outs of "natural" beekeeping using a Lang hive. While not strictly organic in approach, the class offered alternatives to chemical laden solutions.

We also learned how the honeybee is instrumental in America's food production and about CCD. The state apairy inspector was also there. She even helped me build my deep hive body!

While it is called Indiana Beekeeping School, we had folks from all over the Mid-west. If you are interested in beekeeping and can make it to Indy or any of the satellite locations, I highly reccomend attending. I believe that the school is also offering a top bar hive class later this year.

Here is the website: www.indianabeekeepingschool.com

Once I get my hive built and my nuc installed, I will post pics.

 

[bibliophile birds]

Quote:
i have still haven't used a Top Bar (but they do interest me), so i can't speak to that side of the issue, but we've raised bees "organically" for years and years in Langstroth hives. i don't feel like one hive structure is really any more suited to "organic" than the other, but that really depends on your philosophy as a beek and what you are trying to really accomplish with your hives.

i put "organic" in quotes because it's important to remember that, in a regulatory standing, honey cannot be designated organic. since a beek has absolutely no control or idea where the bees are feeding, even someone with acres and acres of organic farm can't guarantee their bees aren't getting into pesticides, herbicides, or GMO crops somewhere. so, "organic" in regards to beekeeping is all about how the beek choose to treat their bees. if you choose to take good preventative measures (as were mentioned a few posts up) like buying good, hygienic stock and monitoring them for things you can help them with (such as hive beetles and mites), you've done all you can to really be "organic." which you can do in any hive. so, basically, choose the one that feels right for you.

Quote:
you can crush-and-strain combs from Langstroth hives just as easily as you can those from Top Bar. this is what i do and i have 15 hives to process every year. we used to send ours out to a local guy with a big extractor set up but it stopped feeling worth it to us. there are also a lot of little extractors you can buy or build- these are mostly hand cranked, hand spun, bicycle powered (that's what i want!), or have a small motor. again, it's really about what you are happy with.

you can use natural, clean wax foundation boards in Langstroths. this video is exactly how i start my foundations. the benefits are:

1) you can make your foundations out of your own collected wax if you have a plastic mold to work from (or you can just buy them from a reputable source)
2) if you do end up buying a small extractor you can reuse your foundations and the comb that the bees have built up for a second honey harvest that year
3) as i said, you can crush and strain these just as easily if you choose
4) you save your bees just that little bit of work which means they spend more time making honey
5) the pattern on the foundation wax isn't all uniform- the different sizes direct the bees where to build brood cells and where to store honey, which helps the beek from destroying valuable brood cells
6) at the end of the year, you just toss the foundations or melt them down to become new ones!

so, again, it's really just what you are most comfortable and happy with. i'm definitely NOT a Langstroth pusher. not very long ago (when i actually took over the management of the bees from my father) i was feeling the pressure to switch to Top Bars because i, too, wanted to be as natural as i could. i'm still very interested in them and will definitely have a couple in the near future.

but, i've done all the hard research and have come to the conclusion that it REALLY is just the beeks preference. nothing in either model should keep you from raising your bees and meeting your goals exactly as you see fit. especially if you don't rely solely on purchased hive bodies. instead, mix and match the parts of each hive style that make sense for you- put a wire bottom on your Langstoth or cut wax foundations to fit your Top Bar. innovation and creativity are a beeks best friend!

 

[topbarmaker]

There's a lot of bad information on the web concerning top bar hives. I don't quite understand the opposition of Langstroth users, but as a person who designs and builds top bar hives I would reassure anyone considering which hive type is better that in general a top bar hive is best for the hobbyist who only wants a hive or two and who is more concerned about preserving our honeybee rather than how much honey they can extract from the hive. Both the old fashioned Langstroth and the modern versions of the top bar have their strengths, but the reality is that everything depends on the vigilance and skill of the keeper. I would urge anyone who would like to approach beekeeping from an environmental point of view contact the various makers of top bar hives to learn more. The only way that we are going to keep a viable honeybee population in this time of rapid environmental change is by recruiting and training a new generation of beekeepers. Research has shown that feral honeybee colonies have at most a three year lifespan before parasites, disease, and agricultural toxins (including pesticide-laced genetically-modified corn!) do them in.

 

[Talihofarms]

Quote:
I agree with you regarding the feral honey bees to some extent.

Having sait that, I have Carnis, Italians, and Russian stock at several locations, and would hope that some of my swarms are
enjoying the company of the local natives.

Adding some hygenic bennefits to the feral colonies out there.
Still waiting for a real answer to CCD.

Food for thought.