A Heritage of Perfection: Standard-bred Large Fowl

[CarolinaHen]

I'm not quite sure this is the correct thread for this but I feel it's the best fit for my questions so here goes ...

Some may have read in my past posts that hubby and I are looking to start a small scale breeding operation. We were looking at Brahma's to start with but the more we looked into it the more we decided they weren't that *perfect* fit. Too slow to mature, feed ratio's, etc. We LOVE the look of these birds and we feel that is important since we will be looking at them daily. However we think perhaps they aren't what we need in respect to having a dual purpose bird. I'm pretty sure we've settled on the Delaware (gorgeous bird) and have found a place to get good quality stock to start. This leads me to the questions.

I have shown both horses and dogs in my life and have always bred to the breed standards for the breed or purchased from a breeder. I left the show world for my own reasons. Mostly the petty drama that always seemed to surround the show ring, lack of sportsmanship and frankly down right nasty human behavior LOL. Not only that, I found the judging tending to lean toward the more "fad" type of look as in the poor, low slung hind end in the German Shepherd world or the excessive dish face in the Arabian horse world. What "wins" is what is bred for not necessarily what is written in their standards. In the poultry world, I don't want to assume the same exists but I'm a bit inclined to think it does as competition often breeds this behavior. So my question is, does it? If so is it only a few or can I be pretty assured I'm going to have to tune out 80% of nonsense? Does the poultry world live up to their breed standards in terms of judging?

Second question, is it valid to breed to the SOP if not showing. In other parts of the animal breeding world most will tell you if you don't show it doesn't matter what you put on the ground if you don't have the awards to back it up. Personally, I don't subscribe to that line of thinking but I know many who do and they do have valid reasons for that line of thouight. My concern here is that the production end of the standard is not being held up to but only the "look" of the bird.

Appreciate the feedback!

I also showed dogs for many years, and was hopeful that the world of chicken shows was different. Nope. It's the same.

I'm sure there will be disagreements about that statement, but the fact of the matter is that the look of the bird is what matters at the show. I have found just as much difference between strains specifically bred for show vs those bred for production as there is in the bench vs field labs. That is the best way I can describe it. There is also the same amount of arguing over the SOP in different breeds.

However, there is also the great joy of breeding an animal to standard and having them produce the way they are supposed to. Choose a breed that has not been popular in the past few years, and you will find a great group of breeders as well as a great selection of good birds from which to start your breeding program. It's like everything else.... whatever is the "fad" breed of the moment won't be of as good quality due to the people who are just breeding for profit.

 

[gjensen]

I'm not quite sure this is the correct thread for this but I feel it's the best fit for my questions so here goes ...

Some may have read in my past posts that hubby and I are looking to start a small scale breeding operation. We were looking at Brahma's to start with but the more we looked into it the more we decided they weren't that *perfect* fit. Too slow to mature, feed ratio's, etc. We LOVE the look of these birds and we feel that is important since we will be looking at them daily. However we think perhaps they aren't what we need in respect to having a dual purpose bird. I'm pretty sure we've settled on the Delaware (gorgeous bird) and have found a place to get good quality stock to start. This leads me to the questions.

I have shown both horses and dogs in my life and have always bred to the breed standards for the breed or purchased from a breeder. I left the show world for my own reasons. Mostly the petty drama that always seemed to surround the show ring, lack of sportsmanship and frankly down right nasty human behavior LOL. Not only that, I found the judging tending to lean toward the more "fad" type of look as in the poor, low slung hind end in the German Shepherd world or the excessive dish face in the Arabian horse world. What "wins" is what is bred for not necessarily what is written in their standards. In the poultry world, I don't want to assume the same exists but I'm a bit inclined to think it does as competition often breeds this behavior. So my question is, does it? If so is it only a few or can I be pretty assured I'm going to have to tune out 80% of nonsense? Does the poultry world live up to their breed standards in terms of judging?

Second question, is it valid to breed to the SOP if not showing. In other parts of the animal breeding world most will tell you if you don't show it doesn't matter what you put on the ground if you don't have the awards to back it up. Personally, I don't subscribe to that line of thinking but I know many who do and they do have valid reasons for that line of thouight. My concern here is that the production end of the standard is not being held up to but only the "look" of the bird.

Appreciate the feedback!

It is my opinion that we cannot intelligently breed a pure breed without breeding to a recognized standard.

Concerning production, it is not fair to say that no one that exhibits poultry does not care about it. It is also unfair to say that all birds bred for exhibition are unproductive. I think if we consider this point honestly, we will find a variety of people with a variety of positions on the topic. You are free to have your own. I have mine.
The breeders that I admire the most, breed productive birds. And they win.

I have also never met a poultry enthusiast that I did not like. I see more conflict on the internet than I have ever seen in person. All of the serious poultry people that I know personally, are great people.

Concerning the judging. I am no judge, but it looks as if they do judge according to the Standard. Keep in mind they judge what is in front of them. It is up the breeder to breed to the Standard. If they have ten birds of a breed or variety in front of them, they have to choose what is there. They cannot choose what is not there.

Hopefully Joseph will comment on your questions. He is good at articulating the benefits of participating.

 

[MagicChicken]

Does the poultry world live up to their breed standards in terms of judging?

Second question, is it valid to breed to the SOP if not showing. In other parts of the animal breeding world most will tell you if you don't show it doesn't matter what you put on the ground if you don't have the awards to back it up. Personally, I don't subscribe to that line of thinking but I know many who do and they do have valid reasons for that line of thouight. My concern here is that the production end of the standard is not being held up to but only the "look" of the bird.

Appreciate the feedback!

Yes, it is valid to breed to the SOP if not showing. It helps maintain the quality of the breed.

On the other hand, showing can be helpful to avoid coop blindness. In the case of rare breeds showing also helps develop interest in the breed. I met my breed at a show (black javas). Wish I had known the exhibitor at that time because his birds are showing well. I got my birds from a well-known source and they are healthy birds from an old line, but they need a lot of work to get them to the same quality as the other exhibitor's birds.

When I got my birds my goal was to maintain and hopefully improve that old line, and I gave myself 3-5 years to see how I do. In another couple of years I will re-evaluate that decision, and pick up some better birds if I have not made sufficient progress. It's about the journey more than the destination.

As for the poultry world living up to their breed standards in terms of judging, that depends on the show and the judges. The judges have to work with what is there. It is a real education when you see a bunch of hatchery-quality birds in line with good, standard-bred birds of the same breed. Which is another argument for showing good quality standard-bred birds: it helps people learn what they should be looking for in a bird.

 

[finnfur]

I'm not quite sure this is the correct thread for this but I feel it's the best fit for my questions so here goes ...

Some may have read in my past posts that hubby and I are looking to start a small scale breeding operation. We were looking at Brahma's to start with but the more we looked into it the more we decided they weren't that *perfect* fit. Too slow to mature, feed ratio's, etc. We LOVE the look of these birds and we feel that is important since we will be looking at them daily. However we think perhaps they aren't what we need in respect to having a dual purpose bird. I'm pretty sure we've settled on the Delaware (gorgeous bird) and have found a place to get good quality stock to start. This leads me to the questions.

I have shown both horses and dogs in my life and have always bred to the breed standards for the breed or purchased from a breeder. I left the show world for my own reasons. Mostly the petty drama that always seemed to surround the show ring, lack of sportsmanship and frankly down right nasty human behavior LOL. Not only that, I found the judging tending to lean toward the more "fad" type of look as in the poor, low slung hind end in the German Shepherd world or the excessive dish face in the Arabian horse world. What "wins" is what is bred for not necessarily what is written in their standards. In the poultry world, I don't want to assume the same exists but I'm a bit inclined to think it does as competition often breeds this behavior. So my question is, does it? If so is it only a few or can I be pretty assured I'm going to have to tune out 80% of nonsense? Does the poultry world live up to their breed standards in terms of judging?

Second question, is it valid to breed to the SOP if not showing. In other parts of the animal breeding world most will tell you if you don't show it doesn't matter what you put on the ground if you don't have the awards to back it up. Personally, I don't subscribe to that line of thinking but I know many who do and they do have valid reasons for that line of thouight. My concern here is that the production end of the standard is not being held up to but only the "look" of the bird.

Appreciate the feedback!

If you are interested in Delaware you might enjoy these threads on BYC
https://www.backyardchickens.com/t/882979/breeding-delawares-to-the-standard-of-perfection
https://www.backyardchickens.com/t/777172/delawares-from-kathyinmo
JFYI
and there is a Del club which is not very active at the bottom of my post.
good luck in your choice.
.

 

[Serica]

Ok I probably should have articulated my thoughts differently. I am not saying they don't consider production. The fact is me being new to this, I don't know. That's why the questions. I know from experience in other animals what shakes out. I have no experience here.

I certainly do believe there must be a standard to breed toward. No question about that. My questions were more about showing vs not showing but still breeding to SOP and how it's viewed. If I don't show is what I put on the ground not considered even though the SOP is what is strived for?

It is not my intention with my posts to be unfair to breeders at all but to get information for myself to know what I am facing down the road.

 

[Serica]

Yes, it is valid to breed to the SOP if not showing.  It helps maintain the quality of the breed.

On the other hand, showing can be helpful to avoid coop blindness.  In the case of rare breeds showing also helps develop interest in the breed.  I met my breed at a show (black javas).  Wish I had known the exhibitor at that time because his birds are showing well.  I got my birds from a well-known source and they are healthy birds from an old line, but they need a lot of work to get them to the same quality as the other exhibitor's birds.

When I got my birds my goal was to maintain and hopefully improve that old line, and I gave myself 3-5 years to see how I do.  In another couple of years I will re-evaluate that decision, and pick up some better birds if I have not made sufficient progress.  It's about the journey more than the destination.

As for the poultry world living up to their breed standards in terms of judging, that depends on the show and the judges. The judges have to work with what is there. It is a real education when you see a bunch of hatchery-quality birds in line with good, standard-bred birds of the same breed.  Which is another argument for showing good quality standard-bred birds:  it helps people learn what they should be looking for in a bird.

Ok great. This is exactly the info I was looking for! Thank you.

If you are interested in Delaware you might enjoy these threads on BYC
https://www.backyardchickens.com/t/882979/breeding-delawares-to-the-standard-of-perfection
https://www.backyardchickens.com/t/777172/delawares-from-kathyinmo
JFYI
and there is a Del club which is not very active at the bottom of my post.
good luck in your choice.
.

Thank you! I will keep track of these and join in when we get ours. Should be toward the end of the month it looks like

 

[gjensen]

Ok I probably should have articulated my thoughts differently. I am not saying they don't consider production. The fact is me being new to this, I don't know. That's why the questions. I know from experience in other animals what shakes out. I have no experience here.

I certainly do believe there must be a standard to breed toward. No question about that. My questions were more about showing vs not showing but still breeding to SOP and how it's viewed. If I don't show is what I put on the ground not considered even though the SOP is what is strived for?

It is not my intention with my posts to be unfair to breeders at all but to get information for myself to know what I am facing down the road.

I have not shown my birds, and I select according to my interpretation of the Standard.

Regardless of whether or not you show, if you do well with your birds, they will speak for themselves. I do think that you and your birds will be better for going to a few shows along the way.

If my health allows, I will soon. I think that I could benefit from the insight and getting around some more breeders. I do not expect to get especially serious about it. I would like to go to two or three a year. So far, I have just visited.

 

[Serica]

Thank you. There's a few shows down here. I'm pretty sure we'll take some time out to go see a couple. Maybe if all turns our well in a year or two I'll test the water and enter a worthy bird.

MagicChicken's comment on "coop blindness" I never considered but makes perfect sense.

 

[gjensen]

"Coop blindness" "barn blinders" etc. is a good point. I have had a couple comments on my birds, that made me go back and look and think. It is easy to get caught up and over look something that is right there. Especially for those of us getting started. There is a lot to consider.

 

[Yellow House Farm]

So, from Poultry Science and Practice by Winter and Funk, published in 1940, a text by description to be destined for university study in Poultry Science at the time: "The purpose of this book is to give what appears to be the practical factual information on general poultry production [...] The subject matter has been prepared as a general college poultry course and also as a reference book for students of vocational agriculture, for poultrymen, and for general farmers," here's a quote of value:

"From 1870 to 1920 may be called the "Golden Era" of the fancier, when he reigned almost supreme. The trap nest had not yet caused the worship of egg records and fancy feathers and body form remained the goal of every true breeder. These breeders, by breeding for uniform type and definite color patterns, did much to establish the Standard breeds and varieties. Many beautiful color patterns were developed and excellent type birds were established." (27)

There was a kind of schism in the chicken world in the thirties and into the forties that brought the chicken world to a crossroads. The APA had brought poultry culture to a whole new level, but with the advent of new technologies others saw opportunities to bring it to yet another place. Those who followed the new bent eventuated the modern poultry industry; those who did not want to go down this new path continued the APA legacy.

There are many, even most, large fowl breeds in the SOP that have a standard built for production, but the reality is that the trap nest et al. is necessary to bring it to that next level. Modern technology has revolutionized breeding for feed consumption; it's not game for most people who derive their general income from non-poultry sources--neither is trap-nesting, for that matter. Some breeds really are just for being beautiful--and that's A-OK. It is perfectly alright to have a beautiful breed with very little "practical" quality. The whole world is full of beautiful flowers that serve nothing but being beautiful. It's wonderful that there are chickens that do that, too, especially considering the amount of manipulability within chicken genetics. The very complicated work of breeding to the SOP is a grand endeavor for the human mind and an excellent and worthy hobby.

Breeding for production is cool, too, but this is not the distinct line that people want it to be. There's breeding for productivity and then there's breeding for top productivity. If you want the latter, go with industrial birds. If want to reinvent the wheel, get some birds, get some trap-nests, learn several other tricks, and then have it. Chances are you're not going to develop birds that equal what already exists in industry in this life-time, but if you want to, go ahead. Bon voyage!

On the other hand, I find "backyard" breeding for productivity sort of dull I did it for a long time. I've taught lots of people how to do it. I can handle a chicken boom, boom, boom, but at the end of the day, when I get home from work, I'm much more interested in SOP stuff part of which for me is, indeed selecting for a productive frame.

As far as not showing and attending shows, well, that's a really personal question. There are a lot of folks who show poultry, and we're all a different sort of quirky, which is sort of true for any sort of specialized human endeavor sub-culture. We're really quite a motley crew, though. However, the system is set up for peer-review. In my other life, I hold to the value of peer review. The world, cyber world or no, is full of self-proclaimed masters. Some may be; some may not be--who knows. It's this latter point that answers the question, though--"who knows?" Without peer-review claims are just that.

Now, I've been around poultry practically my whole life, I have never--ever--seen anything whose beauty could approach the beauty of APA/ABA stock, when it's well bred. If you say your birds are awesome, and I say "says who?" and you say, "says I", truth be told, I'm not going to get all that excited because what's to get excited about? The whole purpose of peer-review is to establish as close to fact as possible what is fact.

Moreover, I've never met anyone who can do it on their own. Attending shows, you learn lessons, positive and negative lessons, that are very valuable, lessons that will take you many years to discover on your own. If you listen at shows, over time, you will stitch together an amazing quilt of knowledge, and all those eyes, looking at your birds, are going to see things that your eyes simply do not see--you need those eyes to do that.

As far as attitudes go, I've always worked in big places with lots of personalities, I don't find poultry shows to be any different. Still, it bears remembering that breeding to the standard is about making judgments; it's about reviewing the information at hand and then drawing conclusions; then it's about acting with the courage of one's conviction. If you really think about that--I mean really think about that--it means that you're going to walk into a room with a bunch of opinionated people who look with a critical eye through the lens of their own knowledge and experience. The best breeders are used to going over large classes of birds and culling it down to the select few; they're harshest at home.

If one goes to a show where there is steep competition among the best breeders, one must be ready for a no-nonsense snap-shot to be taken of anything being entered, and no one is going to pull the punch. Just take it; take it and learn. That is how to become a master--through submitting to masters: hearing, obeying, and learning.

I've never been to a dog show, I don't like dogs. So I can't say anything to that, nor honestly, do I care. I am all about the poultry, and I love--LOVE--being at poultry shows. I always have a little notebook in my back pocket, and I'm always scribbling notes, trying to remember. I nag all of the more experienced breeders and I instantly memorize any little pearl they might drop. I have zero interest in being unhappy when at a show, so just like in other parts of life, when folks are being all grumpy-frumpy I simply walk away. Who cares? Let them grump and frump; I don't think it happens with any more frequency than in any other walk of life.

So wrapping it up, if the question is, "if I don't show will others not take me seriously?" Well, I can only answer for myself, and my honest answer is--no. If you don't show, I won't take you as seriously as someone who's a breeder because other more qualified people recognize their achievements and regal them with that title.

Having said that, if you post a pic a of a fabulous bird of your breeding, I'm going to recognize a fabulous bird as a fabulous bird. If you post pics of fabulous birds out of your breeding with which you've been working for multiple years such that I know that they're the true product of your own selections as opposed to riding the wave of someone else's birds, well that will be very impressive.

If you come back from a show with a fabulous bird that Clell Agler told you was worth working with; well, then I'll be all ears.