A question for Candadians and UK folks and the Universal Healthcare

[PineappleMama]

Okay... let me try and understand your side, instead of explaining mine?

Do you agree with any of these statements?

ANYONE is guaranteed kids, no matter the circumstances, no matter what has to be done to get them?

Anyone who applies for adoption should be handed a child?

Anyone who has a child should keep them, whether they have food, shelter, are abusive etc?

Any man can go out and impregnant as many women as he wants to have kids, but doesn't have any responsibility to pay for them?

Any woman can have as many kids as she wants and not have to provide for them? Octomom comes to mind... had SIX already that she was unable to support, but got impregnated with EIGHT more... you think her fertility treatments should be paid for?

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"You're willing and ready to take money from ME"

NO, I don't believe that you should pay for mine... when mine have gotten sick (with or without coverage) we've paid the bill... might take us months but we do it. We do not qualify for any sort of aid at all, we are not taking anyone's money... not even our own that we've paid into the systems. We've bought their food, paid for shelter, bought them clothes... and we knew we'd have to when we had them, and chose to have them anyways once conceived... we didn't purposely plan to have children when we knew we could not provide for them... though I've seen cases of that before...

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Overall, I think that you and I have a fundamental difference of opinion on what is a NEED and what is a WANT...

Diabetics NEED insulin... a transplant patient NEEDS anti-rejection drugs... a person with heart problems NEEDS bypass surgery or a pacemaker... in order to stay healthy/alive... these things must be done merely to SURVIVE... that is a NEED.

A want is something that does not effect whether you live or die, it is simply something you personally desire. A boob job, a face lift, Botox... all WANTS... you believe they'd improve your life but they are not going to change whether you live or die. Having kids or not having kids does not determine whether you live or die... around the world single people, married couples... don't have kids and live long lives... likewise around the world single and married parents have kids and live long lives... having them or not does not determine whether you live or die... thus children are a WANT, not a NEED.

(Note: If our species was on the verge of extinction then this would change, we as a species would NEED children in order for our kind to survive... it would be everyone's problem... but since that's not the case at all... as evidenced by the number of children in group homes and foster care in our country alone, I think we can safely shelve that... though I do understand that hypothetically it could become an issue.)

In a plan paid for by everyone, that covers everyone equally, I think our primary concern should be covering everyone's NEEDS... make sure the diabetics get their shots, bypass is covered, chemo is covered... things that ANY person may NEED in their life in order to survive should absolutely be covered...

It's the difference between humans NEEDING water and choosing to drink Coke because that's what they WANT... everyone's entitled to clean drinking water... everyone is not entitled to an unlimited supply of Coke. Schools have water fountains for anyone to use... to meet their bodies' NEEDS... but if you want a Coke it's on your dime.

Now, once they get a system that covers every citizen's needs... THEN they can start the arguing over the wants... and I've no doubt there'd be a bunch of arguing... they'll either say ALL optional stuff is covered, NO optional stuff is covered or they'll spend months/years bargaining over each individual little thing... no telling which, depends who's in power and what the citizen's think at that time... depends on the budget, the economy... LOT of factors really... but since I think those are wants... optional... not needs, to live... I don't think it's going to actually kill anyone to wait to sort that out... but waiting to sort out the needs... that really WILL kill people so I think it would be prudent to start batting that around ASAP.

 

[redhen]

You said that you applied for food stamps.. and state medical insurance...
even though you got denied.. you still tried to get it...
Do i feel bad for you?? Sure.. i hate to see anyone struggle...
but thats the difference between us... you'd have NO problem seeing ME struggle trying to find a way to pay for $30,000 in NEEDED fertility treatments...
Yet.. i hate to see YOU struggle with health insurance needs for your children.(That you CHOSE to have ..BTW..).. and i'd have NO problem putting in my tax dollars to get them covered...
Noone should have to struggle to pay for their medical needs .... noone...
But some folks are selfish and only see the things that THEY need in the big picture.... sad.
And i hate to break this to you..but yes.. infertility IS a legit medical condition..... i dont think you understand much about it at all.... because you sound so un-informed.



As for octo mom... uh.. well.. i guess if she NEEDED fertility treatments..(because of a medical condition..)...then YES, she should have been covered for them... (personally..i do think shes a bit wacko though....but that has nothing to do with this..)
Should the tax payers have to PAY to FEED her kids?? NOPE! She wanted them... it was her choice to have those kids...
If she cant swing the bills... she better get a 2'nd and 3rd job... like MY mother did to support us.

When did i say that anyone who applies to adopt should be handed a child?? Again... your making no sense... were talkng about health ins coverage here....

And you're right..we DO have a fundamental difference of opinions on needs and wants...
Do you NEED free heath care and food stamps for you kids?? Or did you just WANT it, when you went to apply for it?
I'd say that you WANTED it... because you COULD get another job and have more income coming in the house...
Its what folks did before the states started handing out all this free stuff to folks...

Again.. we could do this all day long... its pointless...
Lets just say that we disagree and leave it at that..
I want infertility treatments covered .. you dont..
Bah.. who cares..

 

[PineappleMama]

OHHHH... I think I figured it out.

You aren't talking about the same kind of stuff as I am... OY I'm an idiot.

You're talking about stuff like my SIL went through... had major problems, infection and what not, that effected her health thus in order to live she had to have all that taken out... just to live, had to be done... Mom, had a ... thing ... size of a freakin' grapefruit... it was putting pressure on other organs, etc... so it had to be removed or do serious harm to her... those I totally agree are needs, absolutely. That stuff can kill people. No different than removing a tumor (in your brain, lung, any other organ) that could kill you. 100% agree that should be covered as a need.

I guess that stuff qualifies as fertility treatments... I mean, it was their reproductive parts that were taken out, in order to save their health/lives... I just got totally confused about what we were talking about.

I thought you meant that anyone should be able to walk into a clinic and demand to be impregnanted as many times as they want, have as many kids as they want, and it should all be considered in the same category as an emergency hysterectomy to save their lives.

OY, sorry... feel kinda like a moron now. *blush*

 

[Show Me Chick]

I've got Multiple Sclerosis and I'm 100% against Obama's health care policy. I have my own heath insurance and love what they do for me. If you can't afford simple things as food, shelter, health insurance then you should keep your legs crossed and not reproduce... it's your job to take care of yourself and children... no one else should have to pay taxes to cover your lack of responsibility.

 

[redhen]

Quote:
Nope.. were still not on the same page...

I'm not talking about life saving treatemtns... not at all..
But i am talking about medically needed infertility treatments..

 

[PineappleMama]

Why do I feel like the light bulb is RIGHT there... but I just can't reach the switch?

Okay... could you define what you mean when YOU say Medically Needed?

To me that means... "required in order to stay healthy/alive" In a sentence a doc could use either... tells the diabetic "For you, Insulin is medically needed." OR doc could say "For you, Insulin is required in order to stay healthy/alive"

So, what's Medically Needed mean in your book?

IMO being fertile or not... that doesn't kill people... as evidenced by the fact that I'm typing this some 8 years after being sterilized. And being fertile didn't kill me for the 22 years (I guess technically only 8, from puberty) prior to sterilization. Me being able to get pregnant or not hasn't effected my health in any way, shape or form... now once I was pregnant yeah... obviously... but in the years before that and after, me not being pregnant didn't have any adverse effect on my health... well to me that means that putting being fertile or not into the same category as insulin for a diabetic is just illogical.

I think I'm just having a major vocabulary brain fart... has happened before... one reason I've go so many dictionaries in the house... in over 10 languages and at least 4 just in English... because it's easy to get lost in translation... of course, this comes from the gal who used to use the world hugungous ... so there ya go.

I think what you're talking about is what I would consider an elected thing... not sure, but I think so... like a nose job... having Jen Aniston's nose or not isn't gonna kill ya, any more than having her hair cut won't... thus it's a choice thing... and thus is NOT my primary concern when it comes to making a plan that'll cover everyone. MY primary concern about any possible system is covering the have to have to LIVE stuff... get that done then you can battle out boob jobs as long as you like...

But... think on this... if my elective thing is covered then why shouldn't Muffy's boob job be paid for? Both (imo) elective things... so I think if you cover one person's want you gotta cover all... at least here where the All Equal thing plays in... OR you have to cover NO elective stuff... either way would be equally applied to all you see?

What worries me about this thing... well if they say anyone can have all the fertility treatments they want... how many Octomoms will there be? If anyone can walk in and demand that service... and then turn around and qualify for food stamps, housing, and/or TANF that's based on household size ... how many Octomom households will spring into being?

But on the other hand... if you have to 'qualify' for the services... I worry that it'd get just as muddled as our adoption system is... who deserves a child, and who doesn't? Income verification... I get that... but denying a child a loving home because someone is single? Or has a limp? -Yes, I have personally known people who were denied because of these reasons, the single went on to adopt from out of the country, the other just gave up- ... sorry but if CPS doesn't swoop in and take children who only have one parent, divorce, widowed, etc then why should being single play a role? If you don't swoop in and take a child from a parent who's in a wreck and thus disabled why would you deny one to a person who limps? As I said earlier, that system needs an overhaul IMO. And what happens if the only "stuff" available is a different race than you? Will you be denied, like the adoption system often does, because only a black person can love a black child... or white, or mixed race, or asian... etc etc. Seems to me like a lot of people would end up just having to pay for it themselves... if they could... if that kind of regulation was involved.

Both of those, Any Can Have It Free, or Free If You Qualify scare me... so, IMO it'd be better to say No One Gets That Free... but you're welcome to pay for it on your own... just like adoption proceedings... AND maybe do some work to lower the costs to more reasonable levels so that folks can do it if they save up a little bit... not ten years... but maybe one? I donno if that's possible... or even legal... but seems the safest course... but then I am known for being able to see worst case scenarios, paranoid much, so take all that with a grain of salt.

 

[rebelcowboysnb]

Under your definition of necessary the blind an deaf are out of luck. As are people that need wheelchairs. Frankly I see implying that someone that is infertal an wanting kids is the same as someone wanting a boob job is insulting. An I'm not even female. Whats next, no rehab for stroke victims. There alive so who cares if they can talk.

Its a medical issue... It is not a face lift.

 

[redhen]

You know exactly what i mean... No need to play "stupid"..
Medically needed means.. that a RE specialist deemed that i needed medical intervention to have a child.
And thats WHY my medical insurance pays for it..(or most of it anyways..)..
If i didnt have a MEDICAL problem.. then my insurance would say "ooh hellz no... we're not paying for this mess"
And i'd have to pay out of pocket...
Its not rocket science..

Why do you feel that medical insurance should only be for things that 'KILL" you?? Thats not normal thinking... sorry.
Just because you have CHOSEN to live without insurance coverage for yourself and your children... dosent mean that others want to live that way...
I'll never be without health insurance... and my children most certaintly will ALWAYS have health insurance coverage.... even if i have to work 3 jobs to pay for it. Your being very irresponsible... IMO.
I truly hope that nothing serious ever happens to your kids... because your family will be screwed ... thats IF you REALLY plan on paying for it, as you stated earlier. And not sticking it to the tax payers in your state...
Answer me this.. HOW will you pay a $50,000 emergency room visit? And thats a cheap estimate..
Its reality...

Again.. normal folks DO have health insurance for non-life threatning things too...
You didnt know that??
Why do you have it in your head that health insurance is only for life threatning things?? It makes no sense to me....

 

[redhen]

Quote:
Thanks,.. someone gets it... jeesh..

 

[PineappleMama]

Ohhh that brings up a point... what definition do we use for healthy/normal?

Being able to communicate definitely qualifies in my book... be that sign language for a deaf child (special classes to learn it, teacher who 'speaks' it, etc) or braille books for a blind student... I donno about the stroke thing... when Gran was intubated (sp?) about all they could do was hold up this chart of letters and she'd point to spell what she meant... that's the closest I've ever been to something like that so I can't say I understand the needs involved. But communication, definitely counts as part of 'normal' to me.

As does mobility... even if only to get to the bathroom, n'mind the psychological, social stuff involved... just bathroom needs would absolutely mean mobility is covered, not to mention the risks involved in patients who are confined to bed. But, does that mean that everyone gets a $10000.00 custom job... maybe not... but being able to get around if they can absolutely. For some that'll mean a fancy electronic job, for others "manual control" would be fine... but mobility is something that if possible should totally be given... though how do you decide who gets the fancy one, who NEEDS that, vs who just wants a fancy one but could totally be mobile in a manual one? That complicates things, the nitpicky stuff, but mobility is considered 'normal' I think by all thus if at all possible should be covered.

Yes, most people have the urge to reproduce... but even with those urges not everyone does... they choose to, or not. But they aren't forced to have kids if they don't want to. As I said, my brothers have no desire to have any, ever... maybe they'll change some day, but I know their reasoning and can understand where they're coming from and why they made that choice. I respect their choice, wouldn't try and bully them into having kids thinking I know what's best for them... like wise I didn't try to talk my sister into aborting any of her three pregnancies (three different dad's to boot)... she knows her options and the choice is hers to make. In both of those cases though it is their CHOICE. Both will live no matter which choice they make... that to me defines medical need. When it comes to kids, having them, adopting them, single parents, married, divorced... who can say what is "normal" nowadays.

I'm thinking of the outcomes here... our country has this snag about For ALL... happen to like it myself.. but that snag would indicate that whatever plan is passed must apply to ALL... if this is covered for ALL then anyone could demand to be impregnanted... no matter if they can support a child (or multiples) or not... and that right there scares me. Not so much for the cost of the procedure... but for the kids that will be born to people who cannot support them... we've got so much of that already... with only natural conception at work... natural limitations. I imagine my sister being able to walk in and demand insemination though she already has three kids, that she cannot/will not work to support... the though of her being able to do that... SCARY!!

But likewise the thought of that kind of treatment only being available to those that qualify, like adoption, scares me too. Folks like Red there... well if the Government decided they don't make enough... no kid for you. That's scary to me too.

So, to me making folks pay for their own conception stuff is the only way to keep people from manipulating the welfare system... using children as pawns... and at the same time making it where the government isn't telling you whether you qualify for children or not.

If that makes ANY sense at all? I have this sneaking suspicion I'm not explaining this well at all.

Edit... posted at the same time Red... lemme know what's still a snag and I'll go from there... we all know I ramble too much, misinterpret and just look like an idiot... so I'll wait for your cue before making it worse.