A question on submissive behavior

[K0k0shka]

I've noticed a couple different submissive behaviors among my chickens - when a higher-ranking chicken confronts a lower-ranking chicken. If it's a hen and a pullet, the moment the hen advances towards or pecks the pullet, the pullet walks/runs away and physically cedes the space to her. However, among peers, the grown hens don't always walk away. In fact, more often than not, the lower-ranking hen will simply lower her head and avoid eye contact, to signal that she's submitting, and that's usually enough. The other hen has gotten the point across and leaves her alone.

However...

This has recently become a problem when one of my hens suddenly turned on one of her best friends, for no obvious reason, and beat her up pretty bad (lots of blood and peck wounds, I had to separate her to treat her and let her recover). They were similarly placed in the pecking order, similar in size, and former best friends, so that took me by surprise. I'm trying to restore the peace now, and noticed that the attacked hen does not run away when confronted. She does submit, very obviously - puts her head down and looks away, winces into a defensive position, neck tucked in, eyes closed and awaiting her punishment, but she doesn't run away. As a result, she keeps getting pounded until I pull the attacker away. Why won't she run away? She isn't trying to challenge or oppose the other hen in any way, she just shrivels into a ball of resignation and just stands there. Why isn't the attacking hen accepting the submissive signals? I can't always be there to break them up, and am worried about the submitting hen, so for the time being I have the bully separated, and am waiting for my pinless peepers to arrive.

But I was wondering, in terms of chicken behavior and psychology, if you guys had any insights on this behavior. Maybe if the submitting hen ran away and physically avoided her attacker, it wouldn't escalate and I could leave them together, but right now she just sits there and takes it, and the first time it happened she got really bloodied until I found out and ran out to rescue her, so I can't keep them together... I thought at least after the bloody attack she'd start running, but no

Picture tax for attention - the bully (left) and her victim (right). Large, fluffy, mellow English Orpingtons that up until now were perfectly peaceful and happy together.

 

[azygous]

Yes, I've been observing this phenomenon for many years. The dynamic is similar to what happens with kids on a playground. A bully is attracted to the child with least self confidence and who has resigned themselves to being bullied as a matter of course, believing they don't deserve any better treatment. This mindset on the part of the victim, in turn, aggravates the bully even more, and the bully inflicts even more abuse.

This is the article I wrote with my observations and how I treat bully victims to interrupt this vicious cycle. https://www.backyardchickens.com/articles/chicken-bully-chicken-victim-a-two-sided-issue.73923/

 

[K0k0shka]

Yes, I've been observing this phenomenon for many years. The dynamic is similar to what happens with kids on a playground. A bully is attracted to the child with least self confidence and who has resigned themselves to being bullied as a matter of course, believing they don't deserve any better treatment. This mindset on the part of the victim, in turn, aggravates the bully even more, and the bully inflicts even more abuse.

This is the article I wrote with my observations and how I treat bully victims to interrupt this vicious cycle. https://www.backyardchickens.com/articles/chicken-bully-chicken-victim-a-two-sided-issue.73923/

Very interesting perspective, thank you for sharing! I hadn't thought of it this way, but it makes a lot of sense. My victim hen has always been mellow and non-confrontational, though not skittish and flighty with the other birds the way my Barnevelders are, for instance. She's just always been very chill and not easily perturbed. Not timid, just uninterested in drama.

She did go through a period of isolation the way you describe in your article, even though I wasn't thinking of it this way at the time. I do have a "chicken jail" in my run, which I love and use for all kinds of things - isolating chickens so they're still within sight of the flock, breaking broodies, integrating chicks, etc. I have a space like that inside the coop, too. I agree that it's incredibly useful and valuable to have. So this hen spent some time in chicken jail while she was recovering from her injuries after the first attack, and it did boost her self esteem! What's really helping her self esteem, too, is being back with the flock but without the bully around. I saw this in the way she treated her bully #2 - a pullet that ranks lower than her, but who has been joining bully #1 in the attacks in an attempt to move up the ranks. When the two bullies are together, the victim hen bows down and suffers through the attacks without running away (which the pullet takes advantage of). She does the same when it's only bully #1. However, after I took bully #1 away, and the opportunistic pullet tried to take her on her own, the victim hen stood her ground and kicked the pullet's butt! So now I'm isolating the main bully as a confidence booster to the victim, who's been enjoying slapping the pullet around the run all day undisturbed, and cementing the pecking order. I think it's this practice that has boosted her self esteem to the point where today she stood up to her original bully as well! I decided to let the bully out of jail for a supervised outing with the flock. The victim used me as a barrier to hide from her attacker, and I used my arms to keep the two at a distance. After some time of peaceful scratching around, the bully came up to the victim and raised her head high to challenge her. The victim, for the first time, held her head high as well, and did not back down! They stared each other down for a while, beak to beak, and the bully attacked. I didn't wait to see if the victim would fight back (didn't want to erode her fragile confidence), so I grabbed the bully and put her back in jail. I think I'll do this exercise every day for a while, both to let the victim build up her confidence, and to let the bully know that attacking will land her in jail again (not sure if she's capable of making the connection, but it doesn't hurt to try). I may go even further and hold the bully down in front of the victim, restrained, and see if I can get the victim to give her a couple of pecks. Like the sadistic little cluckers that they are, chickens seem to love pecking on somebody who's in a vulnerable position, regardless of rank.

 

[azygous]

I applaud your abilities to observe flock behavior and make good judgements from what you see. You are spot on in your observations.

It's in chicken DNA to take advantage of a chicken being restrained to get in a few vicious pecks. It seems almost reflexive. I always try to be aware of this when I'm cuddling a chicken and to be ready to block a sneak attack on her by another chicken.

 

[K0k0shka]

I applaud your abilities to observe flock behavior and make good judgements from what you see. You are spot on in your observations.

It's in chicken DNA to take advantage of a chicken being restrained to get in a few vicious pecks. It seems almost reflexive. I always try to be aware of this when I'm cuddling a chicken and to be ready to block a sneak attack on her by another chicken.

Thank you! I value your opinion, so this means a lot. I spent a large part of my pre-college life observing farm animals, trying to get into their heads. Nobody else seemed to care - they were just means to an end (food), but I found them fascinating and worthy of understanding. I'm glad to be back in the chickening world now, and able to give my chickens a better life.

Now that you mentioned chickens in your lap. Interestingly, these two hens are the only ones I have who get upset when I have another chicken in my lap. Not restrained or cuddled necessarily, even if it's just standing there on me, one of the two would occasionally come over and try to peck the lap chicken off my lap, and if I try to block them with my arms, they redirect the pecking at me. Not because they tried to get the chicken and missed - they'll look at me and peck me hard on the arms, especially the yellow victim hen, and twist and try to take skin off! They are very social and bonded to me and don't try to hurt me in any other contexts, just when I have another chicken in my lap (especially if it's one of the two, the other one gets extra upset, than if it's a third chicken). They don't necessarily want to get up in my lap themselves, they just don't want others on my lap. I always looked at it from the "doesn't want other chickens in my lap" kind of angle, suggesting jealousy (I'm a precious resource that they don't want to share), but now I wonder if they think of the lap chicken as restrained and thus weak, and are trying to sneak some easy pecks in? Or if these two hens in particular have some rivalry going on, which has entered a new phase now? What do you think?

 

[azygous]

I've often wondered that myself, if it's jealousy or a rivalry thing. I got interested in chicken psychology early on, and I assumed that chickens were jealous, but I don't think it's envy as humans experience it. I think it's more complex than mere rivalry. We'd need to get a chicken on the couch and delve into their psyche to find out. But you're probably on the right track with the resource angle.

 

[saysfaa]

I have a different take on it. Alpha asserts her higher position (by anything from looks at to walks toward to flys at and beats up) over Beta. Beta shows she agrees (by anything from looking away to running away).

The more sure Alpha is that Beta agrees, the more subtle the signals she sends and/or accepts as adequate acknowledgement of their relative positions. The more sure Beta is that she wants to accept being lower rank than Alpha, the more quickly, surely, and thoroughly she responds to Alpha's signals.

The roots of the drama happen when Beta isn't sure she wants to keep accepting the lower status. This changes Beta's responses to Alpha's signals. If Alpha accepts the changes, then Beta becomes more sure she doesn't want to accept the lower status and is even less responsive to Alpha's signals. Eventually, Beta becomes higher in rank and Alpha becomes lower in rank.

If Alpha doesn't accept Beta's signals, then Alpha ups the stakes.... gives more overt signals and/or requires more overt signals from Beta. Beta then decides if she really wants to go there. Or not.

The more unsure either or both are, the more drama. It isn't always a big fight; it can also be the mixed signal things like described in the first post - giving some ground but not enough to clear things up to both of them.

I'm sure it isn't all this simple, I don't doubt the playground analogy is closer in some cases. And some chickens are far more skilled at politics or communication than others so it is messier for some pairs than others.

This assuming there is plenty of space in the coop/run and things to go behind, and possibly more than one feed dish or waterer far enough apart from each other, enough space on the roosts, and wide enough paths to such essential things.

This is mostly from observing cattle herds since I haven't had nearly as many chickens or had chickens nearly as long. They do seem to work much the same way, though.

Hm, I'm also realizing the pecking order isn't necessarily a straight line, an all or nothing thing. Spice is top hen in food related things but Coco takes the best roosting spot. I sometimes see each of them try to dispute the other's top position.

Spice is a leghorn. Coco is an Australorp. Spice is so much quicker to notice food and to get to it that Coco simply can't compete and can't come close to catching up with Spice to chastise her. But Coco is so much bigger than Spice that on the roost she (Coco) can turn her head far enough away that Spice can't reach anything vulnerable enough to peck. I've seen her try. And Coco is too heavy and strong for Spice to push her out of the way. I've seen her try that too. Spice has also (rarely) tried taking the preferred spot first but Coco always ends up with it.

 

[K0k0shka]

I have a different take on it. Alpha asserts her higher position (by anything from looks at to walks toward to flys at and beats up) over Beta. Beta shows she agrees (by anything from looking away to running away).

The more sure Alpha is that Beta agrees, the more subtle the signals she sends and/or accepts as adequate acknowledgement of their relative positions. The more sure Beta is that she wants to accept being lower rank than Alpha, the more quickly, surely, and thoroughly she responds to Alpha's signals.

The roots of the drama happen when Beta isn't sure she wants to keep accepting the lower status. This changes Beta's responses to Alpha's signals. If Alpha accepts the changes, then Beta becomes more sure she doesn't want to accept the lower status and is even less responsive to Alpha's signals. Eventually, Beta becomes higher in rank and Alpha becomes lower in rank.

If Alpha doesn't accept Beta's signals, then Alpha ups the stakes.... gives more overt signals and/or requires more overt signals from Beta. Beta then decides if she really wants to go there. Or not.

The more unsure either or both are, the more drama. It isn't always a big fight; it can also be the mixed signal things like described in the first post - giving some ground but not enough to clear things up to both of them.

I'm sure it isn't all this simple, I don't doubt the playground analogy is closer in some cases. And some chickens are far more skilled at politics or communication than others so it is messier for some pairs than others.

This assuming there is plenty of space in the coop/run and things to go behind, and possibly more than one feed dish or waterer far enough apart from each other, enough space on the roosts, and wide enough paths to such essential things.

This is mostly from observing cattle herds since I haven't had nearly as many chickens or had chickens nearly as long. They do seem to work much the same way, though.

Hm, I'm also realizing the pecking order isn't necessarily a straight line, an all or nothing thing. Spice is top hen in food related things but Coco takes the best roosting spot. I sometimes see each of them try to dispute the other's top position.

Spice is a leghorn. Coco is an Australorp. Spice is so much quicker to notice food and to get to it that Coco simply can't compete and can't come close to catching up with Spice to chastise her. But Coco is so much bigger than Spice that on the roost she (Coco) can turn her head far enough away that Spice can't reach anything vulnerable enough to peck. I've seen her try. And Coco is too heavy and strong for Spice to push her out of the way. I've seen her try that too. Spice has also (rarely) tried taking the preferred spot first but Coco always ends up with it.

Another very thoughtful and thought-provoking comment, thank you for contributing. The injured hen's refusal to run away can certainly be because she's not fully committed to submitting. Part of her is resisting, and she's stubbornly/stupidly willing to take damage for it. Which would be the opposite of the playground analogy (where she's so resigned that she doesn't even try to run). Both seem plausible.

The chickens have plenty of space in every possible way - run, coop, roosts, ventilation, I made everything extra, just to give myself breathing room in case I needed to make changes (add chickens, isolate chickens, integrate chickens, etc.) So if she wanted to run away or evade, she'd have plenty of opportunities.

And yeah the pecking order definitely isn't straight up linear. I find it's a lot like people. Every individual has their own relationship with every other individual, with some generally higher ranking than others, but that depends on the context. I've never been able to figure out if my flock has an alpha, for example, and if yes, then which one it is. I have two breeds - Barnevelders and Orpingtons - and both are mellow, docile and non-confrontational, bottom-pecking-order type of birds if in a mixed flock. They pair well with each other and have been very low drama so far. None have stood out as leaders. So instead of trying to figure out a traditional pecking order, now I'm trying to understand the various relationships between the different birds, and how they all influence each other. It's very psychological and a fun exercise, even if frustrating at times

 

[azygous]

Great observations. People here call it Chicken TV, but it really is more like a clinical study of chicken society if one wishes to immerse themselves into observing it.

My flock of nineteen just lost its grand matriarch. She was their top hen for their entire lives. She was going on fourteen years. I haven't observed any unrest or shifting of ranks, but it may be occurring under my radar.

Your observation that the pecking order isn't always a linear thing is a terrific point. While my grand dame of a hen made sure each chicken showed her respect, there are, in reality, a number of sub flocks of mostly brooder mates now grown. The exception is my two youngest have formed a sub-flock with the default oldest, she having nurtured the two soon after I brought them home as baby chicks at the end of last summer.

Since these sub flocks were all organized with their own "leaders" before the matriarch hen died, they, being stable groups, don't appear to need to do much, if any, shuffling of ranks.

 

[K0k0shka]

Guys, I think I figured it out!

I've been trying to rehabilitate the bully hen by giving her supervised time outside with the flock. I decided not to hold her in front of the victim to give the victim easy pecks - figured that might do more harm than good if the goal is to get the victim to submit more, not to climb up. So I've been standing back and letting them do their thing, and observing, ready to intervene if need be.

And here's what I have concluded. I think the pullets are to blame for all of this (there are 2 of them). They are almost at POL, their faces are red and their voices have dropped, but no eggs yet. They are full size and very large - larger than some of the adult hens (even of the same breed). They have already climbed above one of the Barnevelders in the social order, and, while I hadn't witnessed it directly, I suspected that they had either been challenging the SLO bully, or they had resisted her attempts to confirm her dominance. The reason why I think that is because whenever I bring the SLO to the flock for supervised together time, the first thing she does is go after the pullets to assert her dominance, and they don't always submit! The first day I did this, she went after the dark pullet (who was joining her on the attacks and I thought they were buddies), and the pullet did not back down! They fought like roosters, hackles raised, heads held high, chest-bumping and head-pecking, jumping over each other, the whole deal! They kept it up for quite a while, too, and the pullet would not back down. Eventually I broke them up, because I didn't want anybody to get hurt (there were no serious damages). After I broke them up, the SLO went and pecked a few chickens that she knew would submit, in what looked like an attempt to regain her confidence and reestablish the order she feels is slipping from her. The next day, she went after the dark pullet again, this time the pullet submitted but her sister - the other pullet - didn't like the attack, and went after the SLO herself, and again they fought until I broke them up. All the while, the recovering Lemon Cuckoo Orp has been using me as a barrier and ducking behind me when things get heated, or just when the SLO comes near her. She has been submitting properly, too - walking away - which gives me hope that she's no longer in imminent danger from the SLO.

So I think what happened is that the pullets are coming of age and challenging the order of things, or refusing to follow it, and the SLO is feeling insecure and ramping up her shows of dominance. It was unclear to me up until recently how the SLO and the injured LCO were positioned in the social order relative to each other - they are hatch-mates, same breed (though different color), same size, and seemed to hang out together a lot and sleep next to each other. No drama. That's why the bloody attack took me by surprise completely. So I think the pullets are having the SLO question her status and she's going around re-establishing it with everybody, in interactions that didn't have a reason to happen before, and when she confronted the LCO, the LCO refused to submit (or to submit fully), and got beat up as a result. They might have settled it with less blood if it was just the two of them, but the pullets joined the attack and, outnumbered, the LCO stood no chance and got bloodied and traumatized (she was afraid to be near them after that, kept hiding behind me, and still does when I'm there). So her status with the SLO might have been a "don't ask don't tell before" - not clear, but nobody was asking questions, so life went on peacefully - but when it came up, it became clear that she wasn't willing to submit, and the gang attack tipped the scales.

I think separating the LCO to let her heal also helped her regain confidence. I also think that separating the SLO bully afterwards helped things even further, by giving the LCO a chance to put the pullets in their place one-on-one, without them joining the bully for more doomed gang attacks and further bloodshed. Right now the LCO has the pullets completely under control, and her confidence is back. When I started reintroducing the SLO, she was too busy with the pullets and didn't go straight for the LCO like she did before. For the past couple of days, the pullets have been submitting properly to the SLO and she's feeling more in control, so she's paying less attention to the LCO. And whenever she does, LCO now walks away and the interaction ends without escalating. I've spent a lot of time with them over the past few days, and today I felt hopeful that I could leave them together and walk away for the first time (while checking periodically on the cam).

And look what I saw when I got back to the house!!!!

That's the SLO and the LCO sitting on the roost, butt to butt, completely peacefully!!!! Everybody was having a preen party and they all looked content. I am so relieved!!!!! I'll still check on them on the cam and walk out there periodically, but I am feeling very hopeful that things are under control at the moment, and nobody is in imminent danger of being eaten alive. The pullets will probably keep pushing the boundaries, and may overtake the bully eventually, but that's life. I'll keep an eye on things and make sure nothing escalates beyond what's safe. What I'm most satisfied with is that I've found a reasonable explanation, and things make sense now, as opposed to what seemed like a completely uncalled for, random act of violence. I like it when things make sense

Here we are, all hanging out together today. The injured/recovered LCO is even being nice to her former enemy the dark pullet, and cleaning up her messy mouth:

It's okay honey, it hurts to have your boss bitch status questioned, but you'll be alright:

There is only one bird in that flock that the SLO isn't bossing around - the second LCO, twin of the original victim (seen eating in the first picture), who isn't flaunting any leadership aspirations and has been staying out of this recent drama, but I do notice that both the pullets and the SLO give her a wide berth without her having to flex any muscles. She's my "special" hen who has chronic wry neck, but it's mild enough that it doesn't impact her life, and it clearly isn't getting in the way of her social status.

I'll update the thread if anything changes, but for now, I declare the investigation and intervention a success! Knowing your birds and responding properly goes a LONG way towards having a peaceful flock (and avoiding unnecessary injuries or cannibalism).