Aaaargh! Dog breeders!

[QuailHollow]

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But if your dog has a congenital ear problem, he should NOT be bred no matter how good he is. You can't breed out his problem.....you will just pass the problem on to some or all of his pups or generations down the road. We should never breed our dogs just because we like them, and we should certainly never breed dogs with known issues. They should exemplify the breed in every way.....working ability, health, AND looks. Most AKC show breeders concentrate just on health and looks but there ARE some breeders who concentrate on the whole package. You just have to dig harder to find them.

Just sayin - By definition, "a congenital condition is one that develop not from the family history or genetics, but from influences which occur while the 'offspring' is still in-utero. At various stages of fetal development, the fetus may be sensitive or at risk for abnormalities and disabilities - such as congenital heart and other organ defects. Whether due to environmental factors, the health or condition of the mother, or for unknown reasons, a fetus may develop an illness, disease, condition or other abnormality that will be present when he or she is born.

A true congenital condition cannot be passed on from parent to offspring. If the offspring is born with a congenital defect - even one that is rather severe - if he or she can otherwise procreate, the likelihood is that normal offspring will result. Whereas with a hereditary or genetic abnormality, it may very well be passed on from generation to generation."

 

[dainerra]

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A good breeder has a contract saying that, no matter what, the breeder will take the dog back. If the owner breaks the contract and the dog ends up in the pound, the breeder will go get the dog from the pound if they are contacted.


Why do BYBs have no trouble selling dogs? Well, 1 they cut corners to make a profit and be able to sell the dogs cheap. 2, they give a dog to anyone who has cash in hand while a RESPONSIBLE breeder will interview and has no trouble saying "this dog isn't for you" 3, BYB are cash and carry. want the pup at 6 or 7 weeks? no problem, just get the dog out of here 4, responsible breeders keep working and socializing any unsold pups until the right buyer comes along, even if it takes a year. Each pup/family is chosen to be the best match of personalities and traits. 5, BYB will reduce the price to get the last pups sold. If they don't sell, they dump them off at the pound or even just leave them along the side of the road. They then go home and breed another litter.

I don't know many responsible show people who have a problem selling dogs? I know many of them and they all have a LONG list of people waiting for puppies. Some of them have been waiting several years for either a specific breeding or for the right match to come along. Singe's breeder already has a waiting list for his Ghost litter and the female won't be in season until sometime in the spring. I know one of them and he has been waiting FIVE years.

BYBs are always worse. They take no responsibility for their dogs. They cut corners to make money. They breed whatever is convenient, no matter if the dogs are a good match or not. They price to sell. If something goes wrong, then too bad it's your problem. Once the money changes hands, they are out of the picture. Pups don't sell? Just dump them and breed a new litter.

http://www.bonafido.org/backyardbreeder.htm

and to clear it up since the "congenital" debate going on appears to be a GSD with soft-ears. It IS possible to damage the cartilage in a GSD's ear so that it won't stand. It's pretty dang hard to do unless it's a freak accident. Most times, it is genetic. That is the reason you have to know the genetics behind BOTH sides of the pedigree. Just because mom and dad are good doesn't mean that they don't carry certain recessive genes. If you mix them together, then the problem shows up. A good breeder will know this before-hand. Sure, sometimes they might get surprised by something that shows up, but they take responsibility for that. They are upfront with the buyers and sell those pups on limited registration and ask that the pups be spayed/neutered. They know that the dogs will still be excellent pets and workers, but that they shouldn't be bred.

In the end, it is your choice as a buyer. If you don't want to sign a contract and believe "I'll do what I want when I pay my money" by all means pass the breeder by. They aren't going to have their feelings hurt and will be glad that you chose not to buy one of their puppies. Actually, just go ahead and say "sorry, I'm not signing that. I'll do as I please" and they will happily tell you "thanks, but you can't have a dog from us" It's the glory of free enterprise in America. Just don't lie and sign the contract and then go on to do whatever you want.

 

[dainerra]

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actually, the 2 generation is 5. and, if you have a good line with a set type or just a very prepotent dog, then the influence can last longer. Is it common to have something crop up from several generations ago, not really. BUT recessives do. That is because the breeders don't worry about what is "behind" and only worry about the physical that they can see.

You can't outsmart mother nature, but you can follow her example and breed only the best to the best. In the canine world, breeding actually isn't a natural state for the animals. Only the top pair breed, the best of the best. The rest of the pack will work together to care for the pups, ensuring that only the best genes are passed on. There are no BYBs saying "oh but she won't be complete unless she gets to be a mommy"

It doesn't matter if your criteria is obedience titles, herding titles, conformation titles, or real-life down in the dirt work. They ALL prove that the dog has some quality that you are looking for. It means that other people have seen this dog and agree - this is important because don't we all think our dog is perfect and that everyone will want one?? The titles and ribbons by themselves mean nothing. They need to be backed up by an understanding of the work involved to get there. What does a dog need to achieve this? If the answer is "a carefully chosen judge. and make sure it's not raining because he's scared of thunder" then NO that dog shouldn't be bred, even if he has 10,000 titles.

The titles by themselves are just paper. They are a way of checking out the breeder more than the dog. They tell you that the breeder is working towards a goal and this is the steps they are taking to reach it. Then ask the breeder "why this pair" They should tell you where the female is lacking, because no dog is perfect. They should tell you what traits the male has that will balance out that female. They should tell you what the female brings to the litter. What traits do they hope she passes on? They should be able to tell you exactly what they expect the pups to be, even before the breeding takes place. Sure, sometimes mother nature will sneak in a curve ball (Panda Shepherds, anyone?), but the odds are much more stacked in your favor if you know what you are starting with.

 

[dainerra]

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LOL - yeah. Because they are NORMAL.

lol yeah right. Working line dogs are JUST as strict. They don't want their dogs ending up as breeding machines either. I have a working line dog, from Czech import lines. The contract is just as strict as any "show breeder" contract.

What people are missing is that the contract is just as much to protect the buyer as the dog. There is no protection for the breeder, except that they spell out that the dog isn't show quality. That way, the buyer can't try to come back and sue saying that they thought it would be. Otherwise, the protection is for the dog and for the buyer. If the puppy has a health problem, the breeder is there to help. If the puppy turns out to be too much to handle, the breeder is there to help. Puppy is going through a case of rowdy teenager-ness? The breeder is there to help. Buyer loses his job and the house burns down? Breeder is there to help to make sure that the puppy doesn't have to be dumped at the pound.

Breeders who take the money and run are a dime a dozen. The "I bought it" attitude goes both ways. Once you hand over the money, they don't care what happens with the dog. It's your problem now.

 

[SillyChicken]

Since I was breeding dogs for a while myself I will tell you that it is NOT cheap, the breeders are trying to recoop costs the same as any producer of a product would. I will also tell you that customers lie through their dang teeth to get a "deal" on a dog or try to undermine the breeders at every turn. I cannot tell you how many people I simply hung up someone on when they asked if I bred "them fightin dogs". The last dog I bought was 2800.00 and I got only one litter out of her before she contracted pirometria and had to have emergency surgery to be spayed. I only sold 3 puppies from that litter, kept one for myself, the pup I kept ended up not being suitable for breeding so she was also spayed, her hips were great, but her knees weren't. The cost of the dogs health certifications, temperment testing, vetting, a couple unsucessful AI attempts (over 1k)... well lets just say, even though I charged 1500 for the pups (all with spay neuter contracts), I lost alot more money than I made.

So, you may think that's rediculous, I think its a reasonable cost knowing there's alot more that goes into it then people think.

 

[chickened]

If selling dogs is done as a business like many other animals than doing what you do to sell them like lowering the price or loosening your requirements is acceptable. I have a champion line german shorthair that I got off CL because the family bought it and paid alot for it as a dog for their DD I paid nothing for it other than gas. All dog breeders run the risk of a dog entering the pound, things happen in life that force this and irresponsibility is rarely the case and an eastcoast breeder is not going to come to California to get a neutered/spayed dog to try and rehome. Ask a vet sometime how many dogs are put down because they are not perfect. Breeders find vets that will do this and use them exclusively. A dog that is sold always has a better life than one that is past the puppy age and not sold... they always seem to disappear.

If a breeder would "just" say no I will not sell you a dog and thanks for looking that would be fine but they do not do that they paint all breeders in a bad light that do not do it their way as seen here. The bottom line is most dogs go to a loving home with an owner that will love them if at all possible and making them affordable only brings more happiness into this world.

This is not said to put down breeders that put themselves above the rest as "better" but an observation that seems to portray what really happens. I have family that raises dogs for several generations as my source. My wifes' parents raised dogs for 35 years.

The responsible thing to do as an owner if you cannot find a home is tho take them to the pound or put them down, not guilt someone into taking it. BYB are filling the nitch market created by overpriced, overconfident breeders.
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A good breeder has a contract saying that, no matter what, the breeder will take the dog back. If the owner breaks the contract and the dog ends up in the pound, the breeder will go get the dog from the pound if they are contacted.


Why do BYBs have no trouble selling dogs? Well, 1 they cut corners to make a profit and be able to sell the dogs cheap. 2, they give a dog to anyone who has cash in hand while a RESPONSIBLE breeder will interview and has no trouble saying "this dog isn't for you" 3, BYB are cash and carry. want the pup at 6 or 7 weeks? no problem, just get the dog out of here 4, responsible breeders keep working and socializing any unsold pups until the right buyer comes along, even if it takes a year. Each pup/family is chosen to be the best match of personalities and traits. 5, BYB will reduce the price to get the last pups sold. If they don't sell, they dump them off at the pound or even just leave them along the side of the road. They then go home and breed another litter.

I don't know many responsible show people who have a problem selling dogs? I know many of them and they all have a LONG list of people waiting for puppies. Some of them have been waiting several years for either a specific breeding or for the right match to come along. Singe's breeder already has a waiting list for his Ghost litter and the female won't be in season until sometime in the spring. I know one of them and he has been waiting FIVE years.

BYBs are always worse. They take no responsibility for their dogs. They cut corners to make money. They breed whatever is convenient, no matter if the dogs are a good match or not. They price to sell. If something goes wrong, then too bad it's your problem. Once the money changes hands, they are out of the picture. Pups don't sell? Just dump them and breed a new litter.

http://www.bonafido.org/backyardbreeder.htm

and to clear it up since the "congenital" debate going on appears to be a GSD with soft-ears. It IS possible to damage the cartilage in a GSD's ear so that it won't stand. It's pretty dang hard to do unless it's a freak accident. Most times, it is genetic. That is the reason you have to know the genetics behind BOTH sides of the pedigree. Just because mom and dad are good doesn't mean that they don't carry certain recessive genes. If you mix them together, then the problem shows up. A good breeder will know this before-hand. Sure, sometimes they might get surprised by something that shows up, but they take responsibility for that. They are upfront with the buyers and sell those pups on limited registration and ask that the pups be spayed/neutered. They know that the dogs will still be excellent pets and workers, but that they shouldn't be bred.

In the end, it is your choice as a buyer. If you don't want to sign a contract and believe "I'll do what I want when I pay my money" by all means pass the breeder by. They aren't going to have their feelings hurt and will be glad that you chose not to buy one of their puppies. Actually, just go ahead and say "sorry, I'm not signing that. I'll do as I please" and they will happily tell you "thanks, but you can't have a dog from us" It's the glory of free enterprise in America. Just don't lie and sign the contract and then go on to do whatever you want.

 

[dainerra]

BYBs are creating a surplus of dogs that are nothing like the breed they should be. They give a pup to who ever hands them money and don't care what h appens to it later.

I know a breeder who had an owner call to say "I don't want this dog. It's stupid and worthless. I'm taking it to the pound." She told them "I will wire money to buy an airline crate and make flight arrangements." Sh e contacted tem back and said "plane leaves this day at th is time. I sent extra money to cover your gas for dropping the dog off."
Money was picked up from western union, but the dog wasn't put on the plane. Yup, was turned into the pound the same day they picked up the money. Breeder drove 17 hours to bail out the dog and waited till she was released after her spay to take her home. Rehabbed the dogbecause if anyone raised their tone in her vicinity she would cower and urinate all over the floor and flinched if you made a sudden move. The girl was later GIVEN to a family whose daughter was involved in 4H.

Resposible breeders aren't in this to make money, they want to preserve the breed and to provide excellent dogs. They also want to make sure that every dog has a forever home where it is loved and valued.

My purchase price is the cheapest part of owning a dog. My breeder charges $1200. My boy just turned 1.
2 visits for puppy shots at $60 each. One rabies shot at the lowcost clinic $25. Visit to the vet after he decided to jump off the porch instead of using the stairs $175. Food at $45/month for 10 months. Basic obedience at $100. So that is $870 just in "routine" costs.

My older boy is from a BYB. Price $50 and I easily spent twice that just on health issues in the first year. He is now 8, has 2 bad hips and 2 bad elbows and isn't a good candidate for surgery. He has allergies and is developing vision problems. I wouldn't trade him for the world, but I would have gladly paid more for him to not have these problems.

 

[chickened]

This is my point it does not really matter who sells it ultimately it is up to the owner to be responsible. That is like blaming the bar owner for selling drinks to a guy that drinks and drives. They all can say the other guy creates a surplus and the wheel just keeps turning. If you are wealthy like the wife of that billionaire that was buying all the horses then I say go for it but that is the exception not the rule. The pound makes an effort to rehome pets also.
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[dainerra]

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I'm not sure that is a valid comparison because many bar owners have been prosecuted for providing drinks to obviously intoxicated patrons who left the bar and killed someone.

ETA: for me, it's all about who I prefer to give my money too. Do I want to support someone who I feel is doing good work and going above and beyond to do something I agree with? Or do I give money to someone who is cutting corners and whose methods I find deplorable, thereby encouraging them to continue their practices?

You are buying chicks. You have 2 options. 1 is a member on BYC who you know takes excellent care of their birds. They charge a little bit more because they don't keep hatching all year long.
2 is an ad on craigs list. The birds are in an over-crowded shed that hasn't been cleaned in way too long. They sell for cheaper though, because they have more birds available.

 

[chickened]

What happened to personal responsibility? Another example, little old lady who smoked 3 packs a day and sues tobacco company for lying. Screening is a good idea but there are people out there that are very good at telling folks what they want to hear and there are those that are not good at spotting them also.In my business I make money for landowners from their timber, I need only tell them there is value there and what it will cost them, treehugging hippies will instantly cut their trees by what I tell them. Now if I said you will lose money they say no thank you. So much for screening, see my point? As with dogs, they are all for sale.
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I'm not sure that is a valid comparison because many bar owners have been prosecuted for providing drinks to obviously intoxicated patrons who left the bar and killed someone.