advice for buying breeding stock at shows

[Katy]

Quote:
If the judges are judging to what the APA standard says then we should be able to know whether ours measure up or not whether we can attend shows or not. I realize that what the standard says is open to each individual judges perception, but when it gets down to it if they're judging by the standard it shouldn't differ very much.

A couple of points, at least as far as dogs go, and I'll bet dollars to doughnuts it applies to chickens. When you exhibit to an experienced judge of your breed, you are paying for an objective, very experienced individual to place your exhibits with regard to the standard and to the quality of the other animals in the class.

You mention that if judges judge to the given standard, then owners can also know if their animals measure up to that standard. Most people are not born with the "eye" to judge animals. Rarely, you find a person with a natural eye, usually an artistic person. It takes much study and it takes seeing numbers of the breed. It also takes seeing a given number of superior animals in the flesh, so the judge gets that breed's type cemented in his or her mind. I've had more than a couple of proud dog owners show me their beloved pet and announce "he's just like the dog that won Westminster". Needless to say, every pet owner who has made that comment to me has had beautiful, pet quality animals. Loving, smart, yes. BIS at Westminster? Not on this planet.

This is not to say a lay person cannot have better than average birds. People who study and who seek out good breeders from which to buy will have birds that make others stop in their tracks. However, to get the absolute, top of the breed, it takes exhibiting the best animals to experienced, top drawer judges.

Well since I'm a very artistic person maybe I'm one of those rare people with a natural eye for it.

 

[cracked_egg]

No one said it wasn't possible, just that it is rare.

I am very fond of your birds katy, I just was looking at pics a minute ago at the beginning of the Wyandotte thread. "I" like the way they look, but my point is I'm not educated enough to know if they're really good or just pretty. (Not that my opinion matters much, lol)....

 

[FourPawz]

Well since I'm a very artistic person maybe I'm one of those rare people with a natural eye for it.

If your photos are any indication, I would say you're right. I'd bet you could go to a show and predict the judges' placements pretty closely. Do you watch the Westminster shows ever? Do your choices for the best 4 dogs in each group come close to the entrants that actually place?​

 

[NYREDS]

Quote:
This is what I had said

There are lots of quality breeders out there who do not show their birds but do have amazing stock, so what about them, apparently there the cruddy breeders. Whatever

Whatever in the meaning that Im obviously not going to change the way you think, and your not going to change the way that I think.

By the way, I had no clue that NYREDS was an APA judge. No clue whatsoever. I didn't read his sig. until you mentioned this. If that came of as disrespectful to him, I am really sorry for that. I do appreciate what everybody else has to say, but I do not agree with it, that's my right.​

If you want to offend me you'll need to try much harder than "whatever".

 

[FourPawz]

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Although I have GSD's, I imported a (the correct term for girl dog, which has NOTHING to do with "grumps") from Canada (she's in my avatar) because both sides of her pedigree go back to actual German herding titled, not Schutzhund lines. I got my shepherds more for obedience and performance instead of for AKC conformation. The young male I have was sired by a dog born in Italy, exported to Germany then purchased by a breeder in the US (go figure). He's been shown in a German style show, but since I won't title him in Schutzhund, he can't go anywhere in conformation. My shepherds are great examples of "pet" dogs that stop passersby in their tracks

My first breed was Keeshonden. I managed to breed a BIS dog then switched to Papillons. I mentor prospective judges for the national Papillon club on occasion and I have all the requirements to apply to judge both Keeshonden and Papillons. Who knows, perhaps some day I'll do so.

I'd love to go to this chicken national in Ohio. What an opportunity to see some beautiful birds.

 

[keesmom]

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Sorry to hijcack the thread some, but where did your Kees come from? I LOVE the breed but it's becoming harder to find one.

I also wish I could make it to the national in OH. Maybe some day when the kids are older.

 

[Katy]

Quote:
If your photos are any indication, I would say you're right. I'd bet you could go to a show and predict the judges' placements pretty closely. Do you watch the Westminster shows ever? Do your choices for the best 4 dogs in each group come close to the entrants that actually place?

I think that's only carried on cable here so I've never seen it since I don't have cable TV.

 

[FourPawz]

Quote:
Sorry to hijcack the thread some, but where did your Kees come from? I LOVE the breed but it's becoming harder to find one.

I also wish I could make it to the national in OH. Maybe some day when the kids are older.

Well, the breeders of my original dogs are deceased. I got my first Kees in 1968 (bought him exactly 42 years ago, today).

This is the last dog I finished to championship. He went on to have some group placements:

I still have some contacts that maintain breeding programs. Sadly, the breed has really declined in numbers. They are, as you know, incredible companions.

 

[cracked_egg]

Fourpawz, I understand, if this dog doesn't make show he'll be more of a working dog (and even if he is show quality he'll still be a farm dog for the majority of his life). His sire is the german import "armani" and his dam is a litter sister to 2009 grand victrix, his granddam is canadian/american grand victrix, dual championships in canada and america, along with going select. So, I have HUGE hopes for him, but he is plush, so I've got my fingers crossed that he doesn't have too much hair, lol.

Funny thing about breeder, "breeders are breeders" no matter what they're breeding (if they're true breeders that is). I used to handle anything I could, so I've shown danes, am staffs, cresteds, bearded collies, flat coats, poodles and akitas, newfs, the list goes on...basically anything that I thought had a shot at winning.

 

[greathorse]

It is a tribute to you cracked_egg and others that this thread has stayed alive and open with some controversial exchange about where good quality comes from and who can or cannot get there. I have sought out and I believe have found some pretty good blood lines with a couple of breeds of chickens. In the case of the Wyandottes I foudn some pretty good breeders (maybe not the best) that sold me some chicks and or eggs. I am told by many that Rick Hare has the best known SLW large fowl and he doesnt sell anything but started birds. The person with the RIR sells a very few chicks and required some dialogue etc. first.

It does seem to be some kind of norm for those that breed the really good ones to not sell chicks or eggs.

In terms of Good or even very good quality I think it can come from any breeder that breeds to the standard and culls for type first and everything else second. I would also submit (I know this to be true in horses) that there are breeders that can breed some awesome stock, but they may not be the greatest show birds, if that breeder does not breed for some attributes that make a bird excel in the show barn.

I think if you cull and breed for the standard but have never shown your stock you may miss some of the intangibles that make a bird great when being shown. I would think that a breeder that selects for a show line may make a cut on very close qualities if a bird shows some attitude or style that a non show breeder may not appreciate.

If anyone on this board is an example of a person that can produce some very good quality stock it is Katy. I think Neither Katy nor anyone else will know how those birds will show unless they are shown. But a person need only look at some of those Wyandottes to know she can select and condition a chicken, not much mystery about that.

I will also add that in the draft horse world some of the best producers of belgians and percherons are amish farmers, who are not allowed to show their horses. The stock from some of these farms show very well, but I promise you they know what sorks and what does not in the show ring.