ameracauna genetics question-wheaton, blue wheaton

[ladyfaeden]

Here's my advice (from someone without chickens but with a love of genetics):

Breed a Blue Fluffy roo to two unrelated Wheaten Smooth hens. The F1 will be 50% Blue (with leakage) split to Wheaten and Fluffy, and 50% Black (with leakage) split to Wheaten and Fluffy. Let's call the unrelated Wheaten hens "A" and "B."

Take a Blue offspring from the A line and breed it to a Black offspring from the B line (or vice versa). You'll have a 1/32 chance of getting a bird that is a Blue Wheaten Fluffy this way.

OR

Take a Blue offspring from the A line and breed it to a Blue offspring from the B line. You'll also have a 1/32 chance of getting a bird that is a Blue Wheaten Fluffy this way, but you'll also have a 1/64 chance of getting a Splash Wheaten Fluffy (though I don't know how to tell apart a Splash Wheaten from a Splash or Splash with leakage).

Either method will result in a majority of birds that don't have the combination of traits you want, so be prepared to "deal with" the rest (either by sending them to freezer camp, or offering them as cheap "Easter Eggers."). But once you have that first Blue Wheaten Fluffy, you won't need any of its ancestors or relatives anymore, and you won't need to repeat the breeding that got you there.

Now, start over again with your Blue Wheaten Fluffy, to introduce a wider set of genes (the Fluffy line is very inbred). Breed it to two unrelated Wheaten (or Blue Wheaten) birds (call them "C" and "D.") If your first Blue Wheaten Fluffy is a hen, you'll have to wait a few weeks between breedings to be sure she's "purified." Again, pair the half-siblings together, but this time, you'll have a 1/4 chance of getting some kind of Wheaten Fluffy (since both parents are Wheaten already). If you do Blue Wheaten split to Fluffy X Blue Wheaten split to Fluffy, that means 1/8 will be Blue Wheaten Fluffy. And this new generation will also have 75% of its genes coming from healthy unrelated lines.

To continue adding fresh blood to your Fluffy birds, never go back to your original Fluffy stock -- keep moving forward by using only the first Fluffy offspring from half-sibling X half-sibling crosses you get, and repeat the outcross for a few generations. By doing this, you will diminish the original inbred Fluffy-line genes (except for the desired actually Fluffy gene) by 50% every other generation, and begin seeing increased vigor in your Fluffy stock. And this is a good thing, since in a few years, I'll be wanting some!





ETA -- OK, I just realized I went overboard with details. Here's the simpler version:

Breed Blue Fluffy roo to unrelated Wheaten hens (A and B).

Keep one Blue roo from A and one Blue hen from B (or vice versa) and breed together.

Most of the offspring won't be what you want, but keep hatching until you get a Blue Wheaten Fluffy. Once you get that, you can proceed.

Take this Blue Wheaten Fluffy and breed it to two unrelated Wheaten lines (C and D).

All offspring will be Wheaten and Smooth but split to Fluffy. Whether they are Regular Wheaten, Blue Wheaten or Splash Wheaten will depend on what the parents were, but the point is that you're fully in Wheaten territory now.

Take offspring from C and breed it with offspring from D.

This next generation will again be 25% Fluffy, but also have four new lines of genes in it. Keep outcrossing this way and you'll be breeding healthier Fluffies. The thing is to breed half-sib splits X splits, getting only a few that have the traits you want, and culling the rest. Then repeat to new unrelated lines. Only once you have healthy birds in the Blue Wheaten Fluffy combination you desire should you consider breeding Fluffy X Fluffy.

Thank you for this. I was able to follow it-it reminds me of the breeding plans I lay out for my goats. I appreciate you laying it all out for me!

 

[AquaEyes]

Thank you for this. I was able to follow it-it reminds me of the breeding plans I lay out for my goats. I appreciate you laying it all out for me!

Whew! Glad you followed it. I often have this terrible habit of starting down a road and assuming it's as interesting for others to read as it is for me to write.

 

[ladyfaeden]

Whew! Glad you followed it. I often have this terrible habit of starting down a road and assuming it's as interesting for others to read as it is for me to write.

Lol, no-it reminded me of something I would write. I actually bought these eggs because I like genetics, and a challenge. Just needed the crash course in wheaton genetics so I could start laying out my plans. Looks like its a good thing I've lots of room for chicks! I really appreciate your time in writing it out. Will my splash chicks be useful at all?

 

[AquaEyes]

Lol, no-it reminded me of something I would write. I actually bought these eggs because I like genetics, and a challenge. Just needed the crash course in wheaton genetics so I could start laying out my plans. Looks like its a good thing I've lots of room for chicks! I really appreciate your time in writing it out. Will my splash chicks be useful at all?

If you mean starting with a Splash Fluffy to breed with regular (not Blue) Wheatens, yes, that will work. The offspring will all be Blue split to Wheaten and Fluffy. In appearance, they should look like regular Blues but with "leakage" because they have only one copy of the extended black gene (an allele of Wheaten). If you breed two of these together, you'll get 1/32 Fluffy Blue Wheatens.

If you mean using the Splash birds from your first cross of Fluffy non-Wheaten X Smooth Blue Wheaten, you could, since they'd all be split to Wheaten.

If you mean using the Splash birds from the F1 X F1 cross, I wouldn't, simply because it'd be harder to tell if a Splash is pure non-Wheaten, split to Wheaten or Wheaten (or, at least, I don't know how to tell them apart -- the Splash pattern allows for some leakage, and would interrupt the Wheaten pattern on hens).

Once you know the birds are from some kind of Wheaten X Wheaten, you can use the Splashes, because you won't have any non-Wheatens in the mix.

Those are just my thoughts, based on general genetics knowledge. If Illia (the chicken genetics child-prodigy) chimes in, she'll likely know better how to tell them apart. But from what little I know, I'd avoid the confusion by culling any Splashes until I knew for sure what their Wheaten genetics were.

I had posted in the "What's Wrong With Their Feathers?" thread a little while back about a breeding plan to introduce new blood. I based it on what people do when introducing a color from one breed into the other. If you think of the "inbred Fluffy line" as another breed whose single desired gene was for Fluffy but whose other traits were to be diminished and bred out, you can understand how my brain was working on this. The link to that post in the thread is below.

https://www.backyardchickens.com/t/98335/whats-wrong-with-their-feathers/1750#post_7544978

 

[ladyfaeden]

I asked about the splash because my eggs are due to hatch Saturday and I wanted to have a plan B in case I don't get a blue. Thank you so much for all your help! I laid out my plan. Looks like I should have a flock of 100% wheaton,100% silkied in 2015. Should be a fun project!

 

[ladyfaeden]

Oh and thanks for the link. That all makes sense. When I started reading about these birds, my initial thought was that the first 2 were likely full siblings..

 

[AquaEyes]

Oh and thanks for the link. That all makes sense. When I started reading about these birds, my initial thought was that the first 2 were likely full siblings..

They were siblings -- and siblings from a closed flock, which meant "kinda inbred siblings." And then they were the parents of the first babies. And then the original pair didn't get along, so they were paired with one of their offspring -- from the initial inbred sibling pairing. As the eggs and birds were passed around, most people were breeding a Fluffy to a Smooth, then breeding the F1 splits back to a Fluffy. That's what I meant by taking three steps forward and two back. And people kept reporting hatching problems, birds suddenly dropping dead, etc. So I thought I'd jump in and say that, for the long-term health of the variety, people shouldn't breed Fluffy X Fluffy until they have good, strong, healthy Fluffies, and use the breeding plan I described. It'll take a bit longer for the first Fluffy offspring, but from there, you can start multiple parallel breeding plans using unrelated Smooth Wheatens for each Fluffy. And in terms of how long it'll take to get HEALTHY Fluffies, you'll get there sooner, because you'll be rigorously breeding away from the original inbred line and not going backwards by breeding back into previous generations.

Hey, maybe you can also start on Lavenders. Because they are also Black-based, you will get more Lavender Fluffies in the F2 than you will get Wheaten or Blue Wheaten Fluffies. You can do it at the same time if you use a Fluffy roo. Stick some unrelated Wheaten and Lavender hens in the same pen -- but make sure you know which hen is laying which egg. I think I remember something about squirting a little food coloring into -- or lipstick on the rim of -- the hens' vents, so as to mark the eggs as they are laid. I read it somewhere on here. Or, if you find some of those Lavender hens that lay eggs that are more greenish (the Wheatens tend to have the bluest eggs), you'll know based on natural pigments in the shell.

Get crackin! I'll be wanting some in a few years!

hehehe

Good luck, and keep me posted!

 

[AquaEyes]

I asked about the splash because my eggs are due to hatch Saturday and I wanted to have a plan B in case I don't get a blue. Thank you so much for all your help! I laid out my plan. Looks like I should have a flock of 100% wheaton,100% silkied in 2015. Should be a fun project!

You can use Splash to start, but when you're looking at the F2 generation, don't select a Fluffy Splash because you might not be able to tell if it's Splash, Splash split to Wheaten, or Splash Wheaten because of how Splash is so variable anyway, and how the Fluffy feathers will blur the patterns. But that's just for that generation. If you find a Fluffy Blue Wheaten with no leakage among the F2's, breed that back to Smooth Wheatens or Smooth Blue Wheatens (or use a Fluffy regular Wheaten bred to Smooth Blue Wheaten, or Smooth Splash Wheaten). Once you get to the "F2 X new unrelated Wheaten" offspring, you'll know that the birds are all Wheaten, and can use Splash Wheaten again.

To sum up -- the Splash color can be confusing if you have a clutch containing Splash, Splash split to Wheaten, and Splash Wheaten, so avoid using it when it affects your ability to discern "Wheaten status." But when you KNOW its "Wheaten status" because of parentage, then go ahead and use Splash again.

Am I making sense?


ETA -- about the Lavenders...Actually, I take that back. If you happen to get a Blue Fluffy, you can start down the Lavender path. If you start with a Splash Fluffy, you won't have any Blacks split to Fluffy and Lavender in the F1, and that means you can get stuck trying to sort through Blues, Splashes, Lavenders, Blue-Lavenders, and Splash-Lavenders. If you hatch any Blue Fluffies, and you're interested in making Lavender Fluffies as a parallel project, let me know and I can plot that out for you as well.

 

[ladyfaeden]

My first chick has hatched! It was out of the egg with the prettiest shade of blue. I believe the chick is blue as well. A second one has pipped. I marked the first one as that egg color alone would be worth passing on. I found a unrelated trio of Lavenders with nice lines and will be going to look at them on Tuesday. Pips and Peep, Blehm, and one other... That makes sense on the splash. I will have blacks in about 6-7 months if that makes lavender easier.

 

[AquaEyes]

My first chick has hatched! It was out of the egg with the prettiest shade of blue. I believe the chick is blue as well. A second one has pipped. I marked the first one as that egg color alone would be worth passing on. I found a unrelated trio of Lavenders with nice lines and will be going to look at them on Tuesday. Pips and Peep, Blehm, and one other... That makes sense on the splash. I will have blacks in about 6-7 months if that makes lavender easier.

AWESOME!!!!!!!

Using Blacks will be easier for making Lavender Fluffies, but it's not necessary. You can also start with Blues, but don't use Splash. I'll show you why:

Blue Fluffy X Lavender Smooth = 50% Blue Smooth split to Lavender and Fluffy, and 50% Black Smooth split to Lavender and Fluffy.

If you start with Blue, what you want to do to make Lavender Fluffies is use only the Black Smooth F1s. The Blue Smooth F1's you should cull, to avoid confusion later on. Next generation:

Black Smooth split to Lavender and Fluffy X Black Smooth split to Lavender and Fluffy =
1/16 Lavender Fluffy
3/16 Black Fluffy (of these, 2/3 will also be split to Lavender, but you can't tell by looking)
3/16 Lavender Smooth (of these, 2/3 will also be split to Fluffy, but you can't tell by looking)
The rest will look Black Smooth, and some will be split to Lavender, some split to Fluffy, some to both, some to none (but you couldn't tell by looking)

If you started with Splash Fluffy X Lavender Smooth, all the F1s would be Blue Smooth split to Lavender and Fluffy. If you crossed these, you'd run into colors that are hard to distinguish -- Splash, Blue, Lavender, Lavender-Splash, and Lavender-Blue.

So to save yourself a headache, start with Blue, breed together the Black F1s, and look for your 1/16 Lavender Fluffy in the F2. Cull the rest -- sell as Easter Eggers, use to make Olive Eggers, or send to Freezer Camp.