Ameraucana bred to SOP

[RoostersAreAwesome]

You are correct, I meant my chamois Spitzhauben which do have dominant white and that's how that white chick appeared, but I misspoke when I typed this: "Those are her chicks with a Silver Spitzhauben roo, Spitzes have dominant white." Again, I was posting from my phone and can't always see the whole thing I'm typing or where something got cut and pasted somewhere else. I do not know whether that was a phone induced mistake or a brain-fart. I know my Silver Spitzes do not have dominant white, and they are (now) confirmed to be C+/C+ on the (recessive white allele) c-locus because:

Yes, I've done that, twice. That Ameraucana is not dominant white, none of her chicks except the one with another white Ameraucana have been white. Most of the chicks in the photo are hers, and I have an older batch that includes the purebred one, only the purebred one was white (smoky at that, indicating extended black), the rest were black, some with white underbellies, which indicates that some are pure for extended black (E/E) at the e-locus and some carry birchen (E^R). I suspect that one of my Spitzhauben roos is E/E^R, Id/? based on some of his phenotype traits, so it will be interesting to see if the E^R chicks also have light shanks and feet, and what their sex is.

Quotes from Mike Gilbert:
"It is very common for recessive white to have a few feathers with black on them. Unless the black is in the tail or wing feathers, most folks would just pull them out prior to showing if it is just one or very few."
"Dominant white covers black pigment, but not red pigment very well. Red Pyles are dominant white. Recessive white does a pretty good job of covering both red and black, but many times a few black or gray feathers will be present. Ameraucanas utilize recessive white."

The black showing through is an indicator of the extended black e-locus (which is an inhibitor of red, because it changes red to black by extending black to wherever red should be).

Genetics was an integral part of my degree program and employment after I graduated. I may not have everything ready to spout off the top of my head, but I assure you I have Gigabytes of research, data, and plans to eventually result in the Chicken Kwisatz Haderach. On the few occasions when I post from my phone, I always look back later on the computer and correct any mistakes.

Huh, strange that you’ve gotten so many black chicks. She could also be a slightly leaky self silver. Nothing I’ve ever read (or seen) has referred to recessive white with leakage. I know there’s also inaccuracies in many older genetics papers, which can make things confusing.
@Amer @NatJ any ideas?

 

[NatJ]

Nothing I’ve ever read (or seen) has referred to recessive white with leakage. I know there’s also inaccuracies in many older genetics papers, which can make things confusing.
@Amer @NatJ any ideas?

Huh, strange that you’ve gotten so many black chicks.

I don't know about older genetics papers and whether recessive white can actually be leaky.

If the Chamois Spitzhauben is the father of all the chicks, then I am surprised that so many look black, and the Chamois rooster would have to be heterozygous for Dominant White (I/i+). But if a Silver Spitzhauben is the father, then the black chicks are not at all surprising.

I'm just a little unsure whether the Chamois is the father of the one who is white with black flecks (perfectly logical), or is also the father of the whole brood of black and mostly-black ones.

Iirc it wouldn't be as simple as getting a Spitz with silver, Dom white, and recessive white to make an all white bird in their breed, yay pattern genes ?.

I've read that recessive white makes a clean white bird without leakage, but I have no personal experience to test it with. If I wanted a white Spitzhauben, I would try to breed in recessive white and see how it looks. You might not need Silver and Dominant White, which could save some time & generations of a breeding program.

Or you could do one with Silver and Dominant White (cross a Silver Spitzhauben rooster to a Chamois Spitzhauben hen, and see how white the chicks look.) You might not need the recessive white, so you could avoid crossing in another breed and having to breed back to the proper Spitzhauben type.

Either way, I don't think the pattern genes would actually cause a problem-- they just change how the gold and the black are arranged on the chicken. But if you turn the gold to silver, and the black to white, it doesn't matter which color was where. Or when a bird is pure for recessive white, it also doesn't matter where the black and gold would have been.

 

[Amer]

Huh, strange that you’ve gotten so many black chicks. She could also be a slightly leaky self silver. Nothing I’ve ever read (or seen) has referred to recessive white with leakage. I know there’s also inaccuracies in many older genetics papers, which can make things confusing.
@Amer @NatJ any ideas?

Sometimes recessive whites do have black spots. You’d be surprised by how many imperfect whites I’ve seen (Langshans… etc.) Just like how white ducks sometimes have spots. I never believed it for a while until I actually got some white birds.

See the Kermit the frog eye and heavy pigment in the skin?

Oh, I was wondering why my black Ameraucana’s eye looked so messed up, thanks.

 

[Tankueray]

@NatJ There are two Silver Spitzhauben roos that are the fathers of all of the chicks, except for the one purebred chick.

The chamois and gold Spitz chicks I have are for next year's breeding program and they came from Greenfire, they are unrelated to this thread except that I was showing the dominant white Spitz from Chamois parents vs. the recessive white Ameraucana chick.

The information I included from John Blehm and Mike Gilbert is as good as it gets for Ameraucana, they are two of the original creators of the breed. I've also been talking to Paul Smith recently, so I'm really confident in my information.

I also found the recipe for white Spitzhauben - I've got everything I need to do it, and it's actually a lot easier than I thought. I believe it was from a post by Sigrid van Dort, and may be elaborated on in her books. I'm waiting on them to make the long trip from the Netherlands and then I'll know for sure.

 

[ChickenLeg]

@NNYchick Those are some of the best wheaten bantams I have seen. Id be proud to have those in my flock! My wheatens lose the wing bow after their first molt which sucks. I should of only bred cocks after their first molt to pick who would of kept it.

 

[ChickenLeg]

My main white bantam breeder for 2022

 

[Alaskan]

My main white bantam breeder for 2022

Those are very impressive!

How are their eggs?

 

[ChickenLeg]

Those are very impressive!

How are their eggs?

They are a light sky blue, they would be more blue but they lay so many eggs the oocyanin never has time to build up lol.

 

[Alaskan]

They are a light sky blue, they would be more blue but they lay so many eggs the oocyanin never has time to build up lol.

Very nice!

My bantam wheatens are not very productive and their egg color are not my ideal.

They love to go broody.

 

[ChickenLeg]

Very nice!

My bantam wheatens are not very productive and their egg color are not my ideal.

They love to go broody.

I have a trio of bantam wheatens they lay a real nice color but dont produce well in the heat or cold. They eat very little feed which is nice, but never have gone broody on me. They dont have too good of type but they are fun to keep around for the pretty feather pattern.