American game coloration

[centrarchid]

Quote:
Initially, and likely erroneously, we called our birds colored like example standing on bath tub brown-reds or "muds". You are getting more specific and calling my bird a brown breasted brown-red. Could there be a single gene that can make the difference between a such a color pattern and black breasted red (with duckwing)? Again I state the population, in respect to males, is dominated by those two color types and the hens come in only two color types as well. At this time I do not even know which color-type dominant.

 

[Sonoran Silkies]

Duckwing-based birds have a triangular patch on the wings; birchen-based birds do not. This is the e-allele. With duckwings, the e-allele is e+ or wildtype, however wheaten and partridge based birds also have the wing triangle. Birchen-based birds have the E^R e-allele.

 

[centrarchid]

Quote:
So in respect to duckwing pattern my flock is made up of (e^+/e^+),(e^+/e^R) and (e^R/e^R) where the latter at least are birchen. Which is dominant, birchen or wild type? I am guessing wild-type is incompletely so based on rarity of black breasted reds without brown spots on breast unless another gene is operating as well. Wheaten is not evident in the flock. Partridge on other hand may be evident in the hens. About half of hens are wildtype.

 

[Sonoran Silkies]

Birchen is dominant to wild-type. Wild-type is dominant to partridge. Very difficult to tell the difference between e+ and e^b males.

Have you read any poultry genetic literature? Some excellent on-line sources are http://kippenjungle.nl/basisEN.htm#basisEN and http://chickengenetics.edelras.nl/

 

[centrarchid]

I have read poultry genetic literature. Not enough pictures when written descriptions so vague.

 

[Sonoran Silkies]

Tons of photos on the 2nd site listed. If you can find a copy, Genetics of Chicken Colours has hundreds of photos of different varieties, plus the genetic "recipe" for each. You can check our sample pages at www.chickencolours.com

 

[Vcomb]

Ok here we go, keep in mind as with pretty much any color that has not been bred like crazy (such as b.b. reds) you're going to see considerable variation in shades:

Brown Breasted Brown Reds:

"This was the original colour of the Brown Red, but is now quite rare......The reader will also note the similarity to the Gingers...."
-from "Old English Game Colour Guide" by Dr. J. Batty

In discussing various colors of games with folks from all over, including one Irish breeder, below are photo examples of the Brown Breasted Brown Red coloration:

owned by "cotton"

owned by "flurry37_2001"

hen on the left, this bird was crossed and should have dark legs, I know this cause I bred her, but I'm told she is close to proper color:

The hens in this pic are pretty close to the proper coloration as well:

owned by "TC(UK)"
if you look real close you'll notice a similarity to partridge (b.b. red) hens, but we'll get to that in a bit.



As you can tell this is a far cry from what we call brown reds today:
(yes its a bantam o.e. pair, but its the same color in largefowl american fowl)

this coloration was originally known as "streaky breasted orange red". back then the orange lacing in the breast was much more prominent.

Now to Gingers, or as they are known by the full name - Ginger Breasted Ginger Reds:

"Sometimes they lose colour, when an improvement can be effected with a single cross to a [Brown Breasted] Brown Red which is then bred out."
-from "Old English Game Colour Guide" by Dr. J. Batty

Ginger Reds have been around for quite awhile, however they did not gain popularity in the UK until the importation of some of the Eslin Redquill blood. To quote;

"A feature of this year's show was a long array of gingers in the A.O.C. classes, and the special characteristics of this attractive strain could be studied as never before at any public exhibition....At the club meeting it was decided to recognize the rising popularity of this strain by providing separate classes for them next year ad these were guaranteed by that good sportsman Major D. Ker. ...Most of the gingers shown at Oxford belonged to the dark-eyed "Red Quill" family, and are closely allied to the lighter colored strains of brown reds. Two brown-reds, one with bay wings, the other with dark wings, were shown among them, and should have been marked "wrongly classed." One of them was a brown-breasted-brown-red, the other a brown-breasted-orange-red....The true brown-red is spoken of in some localities as a ginger, but he is not, and hishen has nothing ginger about her. She is sepia-brown, mossed or pencilled with darker brown. ...The hens of the dark-eyed ginger have yellow necks, with bodies and tails mossed more or less densley with bronze, and breasts often laced with the same color."
-from article titled "Old English Game - Impression of Oxford Show and Some Questions of Colour" by "Saltbox" in Feathered World, reprinted in March 1930 edition of Grit and Steel

So it is safe to say that gingers and redquills are very much the same, just bred to different ends in different locals. It is also say that they are on the same genetic family tree. In bantams they seem to have become completely seperate colors-

Ginger Red bantam O.E.:

Redquill O.E.:

Now compare those two hens to my largefowl hen and you'll see what I mean about breeding different directions. (She appears to be somewhere between the two bantam hens):

same hen with her mate my first year with them.

more to come, typing it up as we speak....

 

[Vcomb]

another redquill hen:

bred by "borderline"

obviously gamefowl breeders don't pay as much attention to color as other poultry breeders, so to understand the genetics of this color you'd probably have to go outside the breed to find experts. one breed with the redquill pattern (sans the bronzing in the tail which is prized in gamefowl of this pattern) is the Sicilian Buttercup:

(feathersite)

(feathersite)

Foregoing that however we can draw some conclusions about how redquill works when looking at its crosses.

1/2 redquill 1/2 b.b. red (partridge)

bred by "rdcjunebug"

1/2 redquill 1/2 brown red

bred by "kodiak"


1/2 redquill 1/2 brownred

bred by "gamer1"

1/2 redquill 1/2 brownred

bred by "hosses 48"

3/4 redquill 1/4 brownred

bred by "borderline"

looking at the above birds it would appear that some of the components needed to make redquill are recessive. However even the 3/4 blood bird is not a perfect redquill and would need to be bred back to a redquill. Unfortunately I do not have the means to scan the printouts I made of an in depth discussion about redquill genetics on hand but the conclusion was that it was more than one recessive trait needed to create the redquill pattern in proper form.

to take a few points from that conversation:

"your first cross....will produce some brownred fowl but no redquills. no worry, just take the brownreds and breed to each other....only 1/16 (on the average) of those f2's will combine the necessary genes to look redquill."

he then went on to say you need the genes for birchen, buttercup, and dark brown to get good redquills. really wish I had a scanner as there's pics showing different chicks and what to look for in down color. suffice to say what you want for the chicks to look like is to look like the buttercup chicks. I have no idea on whether or not this is accurate myself.

Finally, some closing history from an article I found online a long time ago.

from the article, "Full Story of the Red Quills". This will help to partially show that brownreds and the Redquills have been linked a long, long time.

"Whilst on this subject of colours I would like to mention that in regard to "Gingers" there ahs often been a certain amount of misunderstanding as, generally speaking when 'North Country' breeders mention them, they are referring to a colour variety very rarely seen now viz: the Shady or Streaky breasted Ginger Red, which is as follows: The cock - face and eyes dark, neck hackle and saddle dark brassy or coppery colour, either in streaks, lacing or blotch markings, scapulas brown or dull copper colour, tail and wing bays black, legs and feet dark. The hen to match has legs, face and eyes dark, hackle deep golden with black striping, breast, body, and thighs black striped with brown and generally brown edging to feathers". <-- this supports the earlier article from the Oxford show stating that in some parts the Brown Breasted Brown Red was sometimes called Ginger. It could be partially why these two colors have been often intermingled (due to confusion of names).

"The breeders of the Midlands, Southern and Western counties and especially members of the Oxford Club, when discussing this colour, are referring to colour as seen in the Eslin Red Quills. The first importations of these were from Virginia about 1903 and although originally foundation stock had gone from Ireland to Virginia to the 'Eslin' family, the birds were now chiefly American breeding stock." <-- this is most likely a reference to the original Eslin stock, known as Red Horses. The Red Horses had yellow beaks and legs, which corresponds to the comment in the previous article (Old English Game......by Saltbox) which stated:

"There are, however, some beautiful gingers, not often seen at Oxford, but well known in the South of Ireland, which have yellow or light red eyes, yellow or carp legs. When first hatched they look like wheaton chicks, and when they first feather might be taken for brightly colored clays, but as adults the cocks are like cloth of gold, and the hens are almost as handsome, with bright yellow plumage evenly pencilled throughtout round each feather tip."

pics below are developmental pics of a "throwback" bird I raised from my redquills. My redquills had a recent infusion of some wheaton blood, so picture this bird with yellow beak and legs to get the idea of what Saltbox was describing:

The article "Full Story of Red Quills" goes on to say:

"The only other importation of Red Quills was made by that good sportsman Mr. H.B. Parsons of Ashford, Kent. This breeder made his original importation of Gingers in June 1907. They were of the old Columbus Eslin strain and were shipped over by Mr. R. A. McIntyre of Warrenton of Virginia viz; fine hens and one cock, these birds were descendants of stock exported to Virginia from Ireland in 1856 and again in 1873.......A leading feature of the old time pure stock has always been their large prominent black eyes, abundant feather and extra strong quills in tail feather, in which much red pigment shows."

"....a copy of a letter from Mr. McIntyre to Mr. H. B. Parsons Esq., dated June 1907, in regard to Mr Parsons importation from him of the first Gingers Mr Parsons had and which he has kept pure since......

My Dear Sir,
Last Monday I sent you via American Express prepaid to New York, 5 hens and a cock as follows in large coop
Hens:
No. 1 a Brown Red (light) with copper legs.....No.2 Black Brass Neck, copper legs.....No. 3 same colour as No. 2.....No. 4 a large Brown Red, dark eyes.....No. 5 A Brown Red showing white splash on back....Nos 1,2,3,4,5 are sisters......The cock (sent in seperate coop) is of the same blood on his mothers side, as the five hens. His father was a famous Ginger Red Cock ....bred by...Columbus Eslin, who died two years ago."

The point at which Eslin died is important to note because the Eslin Redquills had only been in development for those two years prior to his death. Fact of the day: they were developed in Washington, D.C.

"The cock I sent you is a seven pound Brown Red, with green legs and black eyes."

So all the birds sent to Parsons were brown red in color, and yet he produced gingers/red quills out of them. This again points to the genes being recessive.

 

[Vcomb]

ok, I think that's all for now. enjoy reading!

 

[centrarchid]

Thanks Vcomb,

Brown breasted brown red appears to be what I have been calling ginger. We used to simply refer to them as brown reds or mugs and at that time they occasionally threw redquill offspring or at least intergrades to that coloration. The brown red hens you show are a pretty good match for many of what I have. I will be watching over time to see how the inheritance works.