Amers d’Anvers

[fluffycrow]

Why I think d’Uccle are more popular in the US despite the d’Anver being one of the most popular breeds in Europe:
Hatcheries. D’Uccles are well-known by backyard chicken owners who have never seen a show.
Which is why my brother and I saw them and fell in love with them at the first fair we went to and why hatchery d’Uccles were the second chickens I ever owned, along with the Dominique bantams and “Jersey Giants” (hatchery birds so far removed from actual Jersey Giants they shouldn’t be called such.)
If d’Uccles are well known by the general chicken public, it stands to reason that they are well-known by standard breeders. Meanwhile, d’Anvers are fundamentally misunderstood. First off, they are rare in hatcheries. Secondly, if you are to look at the birds that won best-of-breed at the d’Anvers National this year and the last, you can see that judges do not know d’Anvers type.
The reason I liked d’Uccles more at first glance is because the pictures of d’Uccles in Storey’s Guide to Poultry Breeds were show-type d’Uccles. They were attractive, appealing. Meanwhile, the d’Anvers were substandard. Storey’s Guide, flawed as it was, was what introduced me to purebred poultry. So if everyone starting off doesn’t know what a good bird looks like, then how can they appreciate the breed?

In Europe, the Belgian breed complex (everything from d’Anvers to d’Boitsfoot) is often supported by one breed club. D’Anvers are the original breed and the lowest maintenance (and in my opinion best-looking, but lets go off of objective truths) so of course if someone has Belgian bantams, they probably have d’Anvers.
D’Grubbe are probably even easier to care for but while cute, they don’t have the beautiful tail. Also d’Grubbe and d’Anvers are often bred together so can almost be considered two varieties of d’Anvers.

I think I've observed the same here. We're not the best example, because we literally have almost nothing. Did some digging, found a seller of D'Anvers hatching eggs https://farmadias.gr/product/barbu-danvers/







. Yeah, parent stock doesnt look the greatest. I've definitely remember you saying this before. How can the top D'Anvers not be proper in type? Couldn't the judge get in trouble for that? I definitely understand your worries. After all, how can the people of the breed educate the public, if their winners are out of type birds? It's the very unfortunate side effect of not working with the mainstream breeds, I suppose

 

[Amer]

I think I've observed the same here. We're not the best example, because we literally have almost nothing. Did some digging, found a seller of D'Anvers hatching eggs https://farmadias.gr/product/barbu-danvers/







. Yeah, parent stock doesnt look the greatest. I've definitely remember you saying this before. How can the top D'Anvers not be proper in type? Couldn't the judge get in trouble for that? I definitely understand your worries. After all, how can the people of the breed educate the public, if their winners are out of type birds? It's the very unfortunate side effect of not working with the mainstream breeds, I suppose

The first bird was pretty cute, if a little off but it’s never a good sign if I can spot a duck toe in a picture at this distance

I don’t think the judge can get in trouble for it. Last year, the judge reeeeaaally liked the offtype d’Anvers and it made it to champion row, even. No, they really can’t get in trouble for it.
Another issue is the Standard of Perfection illustrations are not representative of breed type.
This partly has to do with the fact that the APA has been mainly about LF for a long time with bantams only taking off in the last 80 years.
Because dual purpose breeds are mostly of the horizontal type with horizontal wing carriage back when the photos were commissioned and even today there is some prejudice towards the vertical d’Anvers carriage.
The Standard pictures show horizontal birds with wings carried horizontally.
This frustrated me so I tried to paint to the best of my abilities a porcelain pair that actually represents the Standard, at least to my interpretation of it.

Let’s be honest I’m not a minor anymore people can see my name if they want.
I believe that if d’Anvers were commissioned into the SOP with proper type in the varieties that aren’t already represented (such as porcelain) that would help the people who are too reliant on the pictures. I also think that if the d’Anvers club regularly posts good birds online and on their website, perhaps accompanied by the Standard if we can get permission, that would help.
Another thing we can do is choose judges for our national that know the breed.
Personally, what I can do is work to become an APA judge when I am old enough so that there are more people that know the breed. And judges are respected folks that people look to for education.

 

[fluffycrow]

The first bird was pretty cute, if a little off but it’s never a good sign if I can spot a duck toe in a picture at this distanceView attachment 3703816
I don’t think the judge can get in trouble for it. Last year, the judge reeeeaaally liked the offtype d’Anvers and it made it to champion row, even. No, they really can’t get in trouble for it.
Another issue is the Standard of Perfection illustrations are not representative of breed type.
This partly has to do with the fact that the APA has been mainly about LF for a long time with bantams only taking off in the last 80 years.
Because dual purpose breeds are mostly of the horizontal type with horizontal wing carriage back when the photos were commissioned and even today there is some prejudice towards the vertical d’Anvers carriage.
The Standard pictures show horizontal birds with wings carried horizontally.
This frustrated me so I tried to paint to the best of my abilities a porcelain pair that actually represents the Standard, at least to my interpretation of it.View attachment 3703841View attachment 3703834View attachment 3703836
Let’s be honest I’m not a minor anymore people can see my name if they want.
I believe that if d’Anvers were commissioned into the SOP with proper type in the varieties that aren’t already represented (such as porcelain) that would help the people who are too reliant on the pictures. I also think that if the d’Anvers club regularly posts good birds online and on their website, perhaps accompanied by the Standard if we can get permission, that would help.
Another thing we can do is choose judges for our national that know the breed.
Personally, what I can do is work to become an APA judge when I am old enough so that there are more people that know the breed. And judges are respected folks that people look to for education.

Wait till you see their YT. One hamburg had a really bad case of scaly leg mites, and nails longer than my list of plants. They don't seem to breed the healthiest of birds...



that's really unfortunate. There should be some way for the judges to be kept in check, I guess. Or just have judges that are educated on the breed they're judging, especially for the National, like you suggested. Did not know that about the illustrations, but it does make sense. Couldn't the breed club recommend illustrations such as yours to be integrated into the "official" ones? I guess what makes or breaks the situation is how active the breed club is. If the breed club as a whole were to demand illustrations with proper type, as well as some form of judge's ED, wouldn't it be take more seriously?

 

[kurby22]

Normally, I would wait, or put the answer in spoilers, but there is no hiding the fact that you are right!
Yes, Ameraucanas upset the Cochins, but they actually went down in showing! Instead of 934 Ameraucanas and 965 Cochins, there is an upsetting decline for both. Only 787 Ameraucanas were shown in 2022 and Cochins are down to 561, which makes them the fourth most popular after Leghorns at 703 Marans (577). To me, this means a dramatic decrease in LF showing, which could mean an overall loss of LF breeding.
As per usual, OEGB were the most popular breed with 5589 shown. And second most popular are again Call ducks with 3636 shown. Runner are the most popular large duck again with 681. Silkies are again the second most popular bantam with 2831.
Once again, Sebastopol are the most popular geese with 409 shown in 2022, a number even LF chicken breeders would be proud to have.

Wow! the Sebastopol is the only goose I know well so I didn't want to guess that just because haha.

I am surprised the LF Ameraucanas went down since they were working so hard this year on the Splash acceptance! I also don't see them a whole lot out here, but I know there are a lot of folks East of the Rockies. But I rarely see LF Cochins at shows I'm at out in the West, although I am just in awe when I do see them. They are huge and beautiful. I definitely think LF showing is on the decline though, it's always a significantly smaller section of the show which is sad. Although out here in CA, acreage is at such a premium bantams really do make more sense. I only guessed OEGBs because at the last show I was at, there were SOOO many and my daughter kept coming over to say "Mom they still haven't gotten to Ruby...they're STILL doing the OEGBs" all exasperated. Haha.

 

[kurby22]

65 LF and 29 bantam. I don’t believe they are as badly off as the poultry census seems to think. But I believe their numbers are thrown off by hatcheries. Just because they are rare in hatcheries doesn’t mean they are unpopular.
This is the definition of “Critical”
For poultry, fewer than 500 birds in the U.S., with five or fewer primary breeding flocks (50 birds or more), and an estimated global population less than 1,000.
Yet the APA yearbook says “nearly three quarters of the 5,328 chicken breeding flocks held by family farms contained 10 birds or less.”
So yes, of course there are 5 or fewer primary breeding flocks.

There were actually quite a few Cubalaya at the show here last week, I was really surprised to see so many. They were really beautiful too! Both bantams and LF were shown.

 

[troyer]

There were actually quite a few Cubalaya at the show here last week, I was really surprised to see so many. They were really beautiful too! Both bantams and LF were shown.

Do you know whose they were?

 

[kurby22]

Why I think d’Uccle are more popular in the US despite the d’Anver being one of the most popular breeds in Europe:
Hatcheries. D’Uccles are well-known by backyard chicken owners who have never seen a show.
Which is why my brother and I saw them and fell in love with them at the first fair we went to and why hatchery d’Uccles were the second chickens I ever owned, along with the Dominique bantams and “Jersey Giants” (hatchery birds so far removed from actual Jersey Giants they shouldn’t be called such.)
If d’Uccles are well known by the general chicken public, it stands to reason that they are well-known by standard breeders. Meanwhile, d’Anvers are fundamentally misunderstood. First off, they are rare in hatcheries. Secondly, if you are to look at the birds that won best-of-breed at the d’Anvers National this year and the last, you can see that judges do not know d’Anvers type.
The reason I liked d’Uccles more at first glance is because the pictures of d’Uccles in Storey’s Guide to Poultry Breeds were show-type d’Uccles. They were attractive, appealing. Meanwhile, the d’Anvers were substandard. Storey’s Guide, flawed as it was, was what introduced me to purebred poultry. So if everyone starting off doesn’t know what a good bird looks like, then how can they appreciate the breed?

In Europe, the Belgian breed complex (everything from d’Anvers to d’Boitsfoot) is often supported by one breed club. D’Anvers are the original breed and the lowest maintenance (and in my opinion best-looking, but lets go off of objective truths) so of course if someone has Belgian bantams, they probably have d’Anvers.
D’Grubbe are probably even easier to care for but while cute, they don’t have the beautiful tail. Also d’Grubbe and d’Anvers are often bred together so can almost be considered two varieties of d’Anvers.

I think d'Uccles are more popular because everyone LOVES the mille fleur pattern and wants the coloring and the feathered feet appeal to backyard yard art chicken owners like me haha. I have 3 of them, but don't show them because of the feet haha. I definitely like all the Belgian breeds I have owned--they are just sweet but sassy little birds that bring me a lot of joy. I too believe the d'Anver is the most attractive and striking of the Belgians though--d'Uccles are cutesy and fanciful--d'Anvers are handsome and sleek and yet still adorable. I adore them. I likely wouldn't ever own d'Grubbes because to me they look incomplete haha. The tail is just too beautiful and balances the out proportionally!

 

[Amer]

Wait till you see their YT. One hamburg had a really bad case of scaly leg mites, and nails longer than my list of plants. They don't seem to breed the healthiest of birds...



that's really unfortunate. There should be some way for the judges to be kept in check, I guess. Or just have judges that are educated on the breed they're judging, especially for the National, like you suggested. Did not know that about the illustrations, but it does make sense. Couldn't the breed club recommend illustrations such as yours to be integrated into the "official" ones? I guess what makes or breaks the situation is how active the breed club is. If the breed club as a whole were to demand illustrations with proper type, as well as some form of judge's ED, wouldn't it be take more seriously?

I’d say judges are very knowledgeable in general, but unfortunately d’Anvers are a poorly known breed. Artwork gets put into the SOP when people sponsor it. So for sure, the club could sponsor artwork and it would make it in easily.
They actually have recently made a change, making the neck worth points in the SOP (since neck is very important to the breed.)
But I still think it might be hard to take established artwork out because it was paid to be put in there. Even if the art was made in ‘85.

 

[kurby22]

Do you know whose they were?

I don't! If I see them again, I will take note! The judge actually came very close to choosing one of the bantam pullets in the AOCCL class, but ultimately chose the Polish. They were nice looking birds. I like them a lot, they're really gorgeous birds. Would love seeing them in black!

 

[Amer]

I think d'Uccles are more popular because everyone LOVES the mille fleur pattern and wants the coloring and the feathered feet appeal to backyard yard art chicken owners like me haha. I have 3 of them, but don't show them because of the feet haha. I definitely like all the Belgian breeds I have owned--they are just sweet but sassy little birds that bring me a lot of joy. I too believe the d'Anver is the most attractive and striking of the Belgians though--d'Uccles are cutesy and fanciful--d'Anvers are handsome and sleek and yet still adorable. I adore them. I likely wouldn't ever own d'Grubbes because to me they look incomplete haha. The tail is just too beautiful and balances the out proportionally!

Haha agreed! I might have to put d’Uccles over d’Grubbes in preferences. D’Grubbes are super cute though.
I always feel like showing d’Grubbes is cheating. You know how often my d’Anvers actually have beautiful, complete tails when I actually want to show them?
Not often enough!
Without tails it’s showing on easy mode!