An attack waiting to happen. Stupid dog!

[Blooie]

It's a good post, the more so because it's specific to his breed and you have firsthand experience with them, but can you offer some suggestions on what you'd do with a dog which would resolutely refuse to perform as per that sentence I bolded in the quote?

I highly doubt Riley lacks basic obedience training, certainly mine never did, nor did the mother of my dog, fat lot of good it did at the end of the day. Basic obedience training never helped us with this dog and his mother, they knew the basics off by heart but always at the end of the day would make up their own mind, and it was always anti whatever they knew was allowed.

I've seen so many dogs almost carbon-copy to them and their mindset now that I have an idea of where the problem is coming from --- a recent ancestry of working dogs mixed with pet dogs. (Particularly Kelpie crosses with terriers). Their worker ancestors failed as working dogs and went on to breed pet dogs who continue to make everyone's lives a misery, using their drive and intelligence to actively work against people, never with them (the very reason they failed as workers in the first place).

Best wishes.

I'd so love to respond to your excellent points.....but when I sat here and formulated an answer it got so long winded that I was afraid I'd be hijacking the entire thread, not to mention sounding like I was patting myself on the back for my success with training! Who has time for that?

 

[duluthralphie]

My two cents:

I would also not allow the dog to jump up on the cage. I have no idea what a "flattie" is. I have two labs, and the dog in the picture looks like a lab to me. I trust my dogs 90% with my chickens. They know if they look at a chicken they will be reprimanded. My dogs sit with us when we watch chicken TV every evening.

I hunt over my dogs, they are the best pheasant dogs I have owned or hunted over, but I may be prejudiced. I started training my old dog the day I got her, She learned basic commands, she learned the words No, Leave it and off. The young one is the old ones pup. I started training her at 2-three weeks. The old dog had 11 pups, all 11 knew the command Sit and stay by the time I got rid of them at 8 weeks old, and were house broke.

Training a dog never ends, you need to keep the dog wanting to please you, you have to be the alpha. That said, I chose the "alpha" pup from the litter to keep for myself, I will never do that again. A strong willed alpha pup is very hard to train, they are constantly testing you, constantly wanting to be "alpha". They most definitely need to be constantly trained. Training requires reprimands and rewards. I would suggest an electronic collar for you. HOWEVER, be very very careful with it. They can ruin a dog as fast as they train them.

The key to the electronic collar is not giving them a shock often. The beep is all that is needed after one or two shocks. We actually use dummy collars most the time now, as the collar just makes the dog think a second before acting, or disobeying.

We will put our dogs out with the chickens when we are not with them, but we will watch them a lot from the window. We want to assure ourselves they will truly ignore the birds. They do most the time. The only time they tend to get too close is when we are watching Chicken TV, then they want to sniff the chickens butts, We DO NOT allow this to happen.

Anyways to answer your question YES they can be trained. My brother has a sister to my pup, He does not hunt over them and he can leave his alone with them with no fears, the chickens actually eat off the dogs back. (His dog was the most timid runt of the litter and really wants to please him)



Wanna pat each others back Blooie? Sorry it got so long, I even cut it short. If the dog has basic training it still knows it, it is the owner that fails then, You can never stop training a dog and never accept anything less than 100% obedience from a dog. Even little things have to be corrected as they occur. That said I fail at that sometimes, but I really try not to. The dogs seem to know when their is company here I will not "yell" at them as much....Dang Dogs are way too smart.

 

[chooks4life]

I'd so love to respond to your excellent points.....but when I sat here and formulated an answer it got so long winded that I was afraid I'd be hijacking the entire thread, not to mention sounding like I was patting myself on the back for my success with training! Who has time for that?

I do! And I'm sure I'm not alone in that. Provided it has useful info, who cares if someone thinks it sounds like you're patting yourself on the back? Other people's perceptions are kinda irrelevant to the facts of the matter.

Not sure if you're being sarcastic or not though...?

I've done a heck of a lot of searching for training methods and philosophies over the years and tried many out but obviously didn't find they worked with that one dog; I've since seen that his sort of mentality is not uncommon at all.

I've done great with some animals and not great with others, I don't have a problem admitting there's a lot I need to learn, I'm always looking for more information. Unfortunately it is often people repeating the same old info I already know off by heart, which has worked for them and which works for most dogs, but doesn't work when applied to this sort of dog which I am very close to believing is a lost cause, a waste of time.

Best wishes.

Wanna pat each others back Blooie? Sorry it got so long, I even cut it short. If the dog has basic training it still knows it, it is the owner that fails then, You can never stop training a dog and never accept anything less than 100% obedience from a dog. Even little things have to be corrected as they occur. That said I fail at that sometimes, but I really try not to. The dogs seem to know when their is company here I will not "yell" at them as much....Dang Dogs are way too smart.

Can you elaborate on how you'd deal with a dog that will disobey no matter what? Don't know if you've ever owned one of those, but there's not an awful lot you can do to wring 100% obedience out of such dogs, well, not anything ethical and humane anyway, in terms of options left.

You think your alpha pup is stubborn --- I don't think you've owned dogs as stubborn as some I've known. If you can still get a majority percentage of obedience out of them, that's not really thoroughly stubborn.

Most people tend to think highly of their training skills until they meet the dog that 'just won't' --- old-timers tend to send those off to be put down or be pampered lawn ornaments with nothing except existence required of them. There's two kinds of motorbike riders, as they say, those who have fallen off and those who will.

Best wishes.

 

[LIChickens]

My dog is a 50 lb husky/retriever mix and does varmint control in the backyard so I do not want to even try to remove her prey drive.

She has never shown any overt aggression towards the chickens. The chickens stay in their run. I have not seen the dog stare at the chickens hungrily through the hardware cloth. When we go into the run, the dog wants to follow us and sometimes we let her but we keep a watchful eye on her. My dog is much more interested in snarfing up the spilled chicken feed (including scratch!) rather than what the chickens are doing. I sometimes feed chicken feed to the dog with one hand and to the chickens with my other hand. That way the dog sees that she is getting the same food as the chickens and so hopefully thinks that chickens are part of her pack and will hopefully not eat them and again hopefully defend them from predators if the need arises.

I am also not sure that a dog sniffing a chicken's butt is a bad sign as that is how dogs greet each other. It does matter HOW a dog sniffs a butt. Is it with respect or is it with aggression?

I still do not trust her to attack them when I am not looking.

 

[duluthralphie]

Hey LIChickens my dog sniffs the butt of the chickens like greeting another dog, I know she is not sizing them up, but I just want her to know the chickens are completely off limits. I also do not want to end my dogs drives for prey, I hunt pheasants over them. I just like to reinforce every chance I can that chickens are a no-no.

Crooks4life: It all depends on the dog, I would not start by having it want to please me, I would start by showing the dog it is in its own best selfish interest to obey.


Start with something easy like teaching the "sit" command. Hold a piece of food in front and above the dogs nose and move your hand towards the dogs tail while saying sit. The dog will follow the food, sitting in the process. Praise the dog and feed her the treat immediately. Do this over and over many times a day. The dog will soon associate the word sit with food. If the dog wants to turn to follow the food, place her in a "squeeze chute" so she cannot turn around.

Is the dog house broken? Kennel trained?

I would work on the word off also using a leash and a low value treat, place the treat on the floor, hold her off with the leash, when she reaches for the treat, pull her back and say OFF or leave it your choice. Use the same command every time. When you pull her off, praise her and reward her with a higher value treat.


These techniques will work, it may take time but it can be done. Any Dog can be trained, older dogs are just harder because they have so many bad habits and have learned they can do what they want. You have to be the Alpha, Dogs are pack animals by nature, they all want to be the leader, you cannot allow that to happen.

I would suggest you try a dog training program, like petsmart or some other pet store offers, they are reasonably priced and teach you to teach your dog. If you were 5000 miles closer I would love the challenge of your dog. NOW if you wanna buy me a first class ticket .......


Good luck on your dog!

 

[dainerra]

I would work on a solid leave it command.

here is what I have used multiple times.

You already know that he is excited with the chicks.   Find the closest distance that the dog first notices the birds in the brooder.  This might be in another room if he is one to constantly glance at the door.    Put your dog on leash and get some extra special treats that he only gets for this work - bacon, grilled chicken (no spices!), hot dog chunks, etc.     When the dog glances toward the birds, say his name and "leave it"    If he looks at you, give him a treat - if he doesn't, give a light pop on the leash (think tap on the shoulder).  When he looks at you reward him.  

You can also teach him "watch me" the same way.   You can practice this at random times though out the day.   If you have a couple extra minutes while you're watching TV or whatever, just say his name, pause, "watch me"   When he makes eye contact, then reward him.    You can also (if you get in the habit of keeping a small treat in your pockets) catch him looking towards you say "watch me" and then reward.  Or just praise him verbally.
 
Once the dog is reliably paying attention to you and the birds at a distance, move a little bit closer.   If he absolutely blows you off, you're too close.  Just back up a bit and begin again.   Eventually you will be right amongst the birds.    You can then start at a distance or with a long line (20' leash or so) and work from there.    I never ever leave my dogs/chickens loose unattended together

I don't mean I constantly hover over the dogs when they are out with the birds, but I am in the area and aware of what they are doing.   Think of it as a small child.  Even though you've taught them not to play with matches, would you leave them alone in the house with matches scattered all over the floor?
 
The most important part of the training is to set the dog up to succeed.   Don't give him a chance to chase the birds.  Don't give him a chance to disobey.  
 
ETA:  The best thing about teaching "leave it" is that it works for everything.   Drop something on the floor and don't want the dogs to touch it?  "leave it"    See dog running toward a snake?  "leave it"     Lots of training and work, but it pays off!

 

[dainerra]

dogs can easily learn to differentiate between domestic animals and wild animals. Rayden's favorite food was wild rabbits but he was safe around pet bunnies

 

[LIChickens]

dogs can easily learn to differentiate between domestic animals and wild animals. Rayden's favorite food was wild rabbits but he was safe around pet bunnies

this sounds like natural behavior.

Wolves will kill wolves from other packs but will defend pack members of their own pack with their life.

 

[Noodlez]

One of the amazing - and at times frustrating - things about Flatties is that they never grow up. There's a reason they are known as "The Peter Pan of the Dog World!" His play drive is going to be going as strong when he's 10 years old as it is now. But if there's a more training responsive breed I haven't worked with it yet. You have to make the commitment - totally - to take him in hand and you can't let one moment of inconsistency sneak in. Knowing Flatties, I can just see him, quivering and doing his quiet whimpers while he stares at your chickens!

One of the keys is learning that there is no gray here - something is either always ok or its NEVER ok. Like a small child, mixed messages mess dogs up badly. Letting him be so close to the chickens one minute and then trying to keep him away from them the next minute simply won't work. So decide.....do you want the chickens to be able to crawl all over him like they can with his sister? If you do you're probably going to be very disappointed - he is simply not his sister. Or do you want him to totally ignore the chickens? Do you hunt over him? To him a bird is a bird, so if you use him in the field you can pretty much forget having him ignore the chickens because again, something is either always ok or never ok. It can't be okay for him to quarter, flush (or point, as mine did) and then retrieve a bird in the hunting field and then expect him to turn that off in his own "field". That said, there are always exceptions. Many years ago a neighbor of mine had ducks - and they wandered over to our property all of the time because the boundary between the two of us was a creek. For some reason my Flattie ignored them when they were in the yard but would quiver and drool in the blind and break his neck to do a retrieve if we were out hunting. Go figure.

Guess I'm not being a lot of help here. Riley will kill a chicken. Period. He's a dog - a chicken is a moving target. If he's already attacked and almost killed one he'll do it again, unless you get tough and start working with him. But you can't do that until you decide what you expect of him.....and letting him jump on the pen and stare at the birds until he dozes off ain't the way to get that accomplished. Start with basic obedience - come, heel, no, sit, down and stay - and until you have that down without hesitation, and he'll obey instantly even with distractions you can't do much else. Until then it's leash and confinement away from the birds for Riley. His play drive and birdiness is typical Flatcoat and will be with him most of his life. About the only thing Flatties outgrow is their collar sizes.

Thank you so much for your reply. I agree--I don't expect him to be like his sister. I want him to entirely ignore them like he completely ignores cats--does the nervous eye thing, he knows they're there, but doesn't want to look at them. I had a 19-year-old cat, 23lbs--managed to get him to ignore all cats. He learned his own lesson with the skunks and picking fights with raccoons.

When I used to take him running, he'd tear my arm out of socket trying to dispatch the squirrels and wild rabbits back to hell.... but strangely enough doesn't mess with the show rabbits as much, possibly because they're black Netherlands dwarf rabbits and somehow different in his eyes? Kind of like your neighbor's ducks--very odd but good point. I've not taken him hunting, but that's also a good point! Thinking about it, I couldn't if I wanted to....he's really, really horrible at fetch unless it involves water. He only will chase a ball and bring it back if he gets to dive and swim for it.

I don't let him jump on the cage--he was whining when I took that picture because I was yelling at him. My 5-YO brother ran over to yell at him too. I think he thinks his name is "get down" because lately that's all we ever command him to do. You know, now that you mention it--my cousins did take him to 4H and to Lilly's therapy dog-stuff for a few months which is around the time he stopped behaving. She was teaching him some other commands, but I don't actually know what all she taught him in addition to what we taught them both as pups--I guess I should ask her.

And I entirely agree. He's going to be a pup until the day he dies....which will be soon....if he hurts my chickens.

Guess I better cut up some hotdogs and hope it sticks.

Thank you guys, for all of your suggestions. : )

 

[Noodlez]

Riley is housebroken. We don't do the kennel anymore since Lilly doesn't live in the house anymore--

​

they'd play and we'd come home and the house would be trashed. He's fine without it. They're allowed on one couch--Riley only puts his front half on the other one because he knows he isn't allowed on it. I look at him, he gives me the puppy eyes or avoids eye contact. He knows better, he's just a brat.

Just commanded the chihuahua to get down off the table and Riley let out this groan from the floor. I think he's a 15-year-old girl and giving me attitude. Maybe I should get him an iPhone so I can take it away and ground him--maybe it'll be more effective than commands.

Riley is on-leash and off-leash trained. He generally will stay within 10 feet of me when he's off-leash, in the presence of strangers, and even other dogs--especially at night, and even when we're in the fenced-in backyard. He took off after deer about two years ago, and he almost got himself killed--we haven't gone purely off-leash running in a while, but have since.

You may not believe it, but we really did have this dog trained once. He was good! Always energetic and needed to be reminded of what he was supposed to be doing, but used to listen.