An attack waiting to happen. Stupid dog!

[Noodlez]

This has probably been answered a million times but I was wondering if anyone has been successful in curbing a young dog's high play/prey-drive?

I have an almost 4-year-old black flatcoat named Riley and a 1-year-old chihuahua mix.

When the chickens are out in the pen, Riley seldom moves. He lays down right outside the pen where he can see them the best and just lays there. I've been working with him on it, and now his attention will drift away from the chickens--he'll even briefly fall asleep. I'm just worried that he's still too interested and the chickens aren't scared of him at all, which adds to the worry. I've given them places to get up and away but again, they aren't scared so they won't run away.

He's had direct contact with them out in the open but is still way too excitable for me to let him get too close to them.

Riley's sister is the only one allowed in the pen when she comes over because she just flops over and let's them hop and scratch around her. She doesn't care in the slightest. We gave her to my cousin about 2 years ago and her being around my cousin's show rabbits has made her ultra maternal. However, getting Riley his very own pet dog hasn't made him any calmer around non-canine/feline animals. He attacked a chicken and shook it up pretty bad at a farm my cousin works at. The hen was so stunned we thought she was dead, but she got up and started walking around after about an hour.

He probably won't try to kill them, but if he gets ahold of one--however, he will maim her if not kill her.... if I don't figure out how to make him completely uninterested, it's a timebomb.

Has anyone managed to fix this behavior in an unaltered male lab?

 

[Blammmo]

Is that your dog in the picture??? I would never let my dog jump up on a cage like that or be in such close proximity to my chickens. By even allowing that type of behavior you are building the dogs drive to harm your birds. My dogs get scolded for so much as looking at one of my chickens for longer than a second or two. To each their own, but i like my dogs to know that my birds are off limits period.

 

[Blooie]

One of the amazing - and at times frustrating - things about Flatties is that they never grow up. There's a reason they are known as "The Peter Pan of the Dog World!" His play drive is going to be going as strong when he's 10 years old as it is now. But if there's a more training responsive breed I haven't worked with it yet. You have to make the commitment - totally - to take him in hand and you can't let one moment of inconsistency sneak in. Knowing Flatties, I can just see him, quivering and doing his quiet whimpers while he stares at your chickens!

One of the keys is learning that there is no gray here - something is either always ok or its NEVER ok. Like a small child, mixed messages mess dogs up badly. Letting him be so close to the chickens one minute and then trying to keep him away from them the next minute simply won't work. So decide.....do you want the chickens to be able to crawl all over him like they can with his sister? If you do you're probably going to be very disappointed - he is simply not his sister. Or do you want him to totally ignore the chickens? Do you hunt over him? To him a bird is a bird, so if you use him in the field you can pretty much forget having him ignore the chickens because again, something is either always ok or never ok. It can't be okay for him to quarter, flush (or point, as mine did) and then retrieve a bird in the hunting field and then expect him to turn that off in his own "field". That said, there are always exceptions. Many years ago a neighbor of mine had ducks - and they wandered over to our property all of the time because the boundary between the two of us was a creek. For some reason my Flattie ignored them when they were in the yard but would quiver and drool in the blind and break his neck to do a retrieve if we were out hunting. Go figure.

Guess I'm not being a lot of help here. Riley will kill a chicken. Period. He's a dog - a chicken is a moving target. If he's already attacked and almost killed one he'll do it again, unless you get tough and start working with him. But you can't do that until you decide what you expect of him.....and letting him jump on the pen and stare at the birds until he dozes off ain't the way to get that accomplished. Start with basic obedience - come, heel, no, sit, down and stay - and until you have that down without hesitation, and he'll obey instantly even with distractions you can't do much else. Until then it's leash and confinement away from the birds for Riley. His play drive and birdiness is typical Flatcoat and will be with him most of his life. About the only thing Flatties outgrow is their collar sizes.

 

[birdman55]

i just want to put in my two sense.....so these are two pit bulls.....and everyones got there view on them...i spend alot of time training.....and the dogs know when i mean business...all i have to do is say there name and they know if they are doing right or wrong based on how i say there name...you need to be in charge and when they do something you dont like you have to let them no you mean business...name of the dog and a stern NO not no hunny and then pet the dog...these dogs are very well trained...and i will post pictures on what the dogs can do on command and you will see...even when the dogs have a bad day themselves they will test you and you need to be on them like white on rice..not beating the dog or anything but...when they do bad they get a stern voice and when they do good give them a treat and praise them...you are the person they look up to and you are the alpha dog...not them...if your dog is doing something and getting away with it it will only get worse...my dogs sit on command, stay and i walk away, and even back up when there sitting when i say back...it takes alot more time with certain dogs then others...my female the white one when i introduced the birds....killed some dont get me wrong you will loose some in the training process...but i can tell her to go get me a chicken and she will bring me one...both dogs know not to touch the chickens unless otherwise directed...and they listen...extremely well....they do play with the chickens and the chickens are comfortable with them...but when a command is given in a dog...especially with this breed they are very loyal and will do whatever it takes to please there alpha person..being a human not themselves....i have worked with pits my whole life...my mom ran a daycare and she had my trained pit in the home with the babies and other children and it was hard for the parents to pick there kids up...he would be right on the door saying nope your not coming in...however when mom opened the door just like a lite it told him she was ok with the person and they were welcome in the house...you have to spend alot of time to perfect a dogs reactions in certain events and distraction play a big role...but you test your dogs to see there reactions and then you improve onhow they handle themselves in that situation...a dog is easily distracted you have to put emphasis on that you need him/her to not be distracted and keep putting more distractions in front of them...and when they stay focus you praise them...and if not get your stern voice out and let them no.....here are some pictures the male is 90 almost a hundred pounds and has extreme pressure lockjaw and can hang by his jaw on a toy that seven feet in the air...he can jump almost eight feet straight up...the female is only fifty pounds and has no lockjaw....but is very fast and can catch anything...rabbits...you name it...anyways here are some pictures...and later ill post some other ones of the training...hope this helps...give it time and be persistent .....remember you have a hunting dog...its there natural instinct to hunt...its what they have been breed for...my dogs...the pits have been trained in other aspects....
this pic above is them interested in saying high to the birds...you need to be able to read you dog before they react and let them no wheather there going to do something not good or ok...the male brendal was just saying hi as apposed the female..this is how she stands before she runs up to the chickens and scares them...so i saidno to her and for her to come by me and sit and then the last pic when the female was by me sitting i called the males name and he looked...simple but time consuming things that you have to do.....


the birds behind them are about four feet...but when i say sit and look....they sit and look


when i called his nake....joker...bc he had a split personality and face ...he looked....again about four to five feet away from the birds....
the next time they sunbathe on the back porch i will take a pic and post it as well....so i will post again soon....

 

[birdman55]

here is the toy and the tree


here is the winner...and you notice his tail..its up and thats aggressive in this breed....letting the famle he won and he has the toy and not to try and mess with him...also notice another pen behind....i would recommend a pen like this on the dogs level to start the training process...when the dog jumps up on the fence you say no...this allows the dog to interact with the birds and no they are gunna stay there...also as you go outside with your dog and if they go straight there and hassle the birds you know you need to spend more time...with time they will learn you are ok with the birds...and then you can go with the approach of having to train the dogs with the chickens out of the cage...these birds are house here for quarantine and when they get bigger will be introduce to the older flock and some of the birds that got beat up by the rooster will be dinner before winter...however it goes both ways...when we came inside the white female was outside with the toy and ran passed the rooster black and white rooster and the rooster jumped up and kicked her in the butt...she looked back and realized....oh a chicken...who cares ...thats a no touch otherwise dad would be mad and kept on running....hope this helps

 

[chooks4life]

Has anyone managed to fix this behavior in an unaltered male lab?

Firstly I'd stop laying any emphasis whatsoever to his reproductive organs. A good dog is a good dog based on its brain, not any additional organs it has or doesn't have; his testicles play absolutely no part in him deciding to disobey his owner and kill chickens, if he does so.

The answer to this question above is yes, people have managed to train intact labs (etc) into leaving chooks alone when they've already killed some or harmed some; whether that will work for you though depends on you, him, and other individual circumstances.

I don't much like the way your dog is looking at the chook in the pic, it is too intent as you said, but it's not outright terrible, and going from his behavior before, while he's made mistakes I think you stand a good chance of rehabilitating him. If he's willing and if you put in the time, that is.

How you train him depends on both of you, and partly on his breed too, you're better off really asking your question of people who train his breed, not people who keep chickens. I've been present on many threads where this sort of question is being asked and useful answers are very few, and basically it's all the same info you find in any dog training book or website.

I have a wild born feral dog, an intact male, who respects my wishes with poultry, lambs, cats, and so forth and will also respect them behind my back; he was not raised with sheep or most livestock he's known, either, and he's pretty wild, hunts his own food etc. Another family member has a dog who is as thoroughly domestic as they come, raised with all these animals, who is good as gold to your face but behind your back she is disloyal and will actively (but sneakily) harm cats, poultry, etc; my dog and this b!tch bred despite our attempts to prevent it, and the son I kept from that litter was raised with sheep, poultry, cats etc but showed his mothers' mindset predominantly and ultimately followed his mothers' footsteps, eventually turning on the very animals he'd been raised with. He consistently showed he'd prefer to disobey like his mother does, but I figured I could train him out of it. Nope.

So much for the power of socialization and training, and so much for the power of instincts. It's all meaningless without a willing heart and loyalty. All these dogs were intact, for what it's worth (pretty much nothing).

They make their own choices at the end of the day, no matter what training they've had. I have absolutely zero tolerance left for dogs without loyalty. If the wild dog can control his considerably stronger chase/kill instincts, what the heck is the excuse of the domestics?! Not good enough, whatever it is. They were socialized, trained, etc, he on the other hand had little experience with these animals --- he was 2 years old when he met his first sheep, a tiny lamb. He's mostly dingo and I've raised him on mainly raw lamb and kangaroo meat, with a lot of raw and often home grown poultry as well, to help put that in perspective. But he's loyal. They're not.

Best wishes.

 

[Noodlez]

Thank you for your reply. I've had dogs all my life, he's the only one that I've ever had that's just been "nah, not happening."

We had an intact German shepard/malamute that was similar in energy but he was a country dog and we let him, our chocolate lab, and our German shepard loose in the woods behind my old house. Castration worked wonders on the other two as they became less aggressive shortly after--the lab later became a therapy dog and the Malamute mix became a Pilot dog which is a service dog for disabled people but otherwise, we don't generally alter for any other reason. All of them would be perfect angels around the house, and blood thirsty savages in the woods. Heck, I trained Riley and his sister, she became a therapy dog and Riley, within the last 2 years, has decided that he refuses to sit and stay. It wasn't always like this. The chihuahua is completely untrainable and I think since they're both high energy that they feed into eachother. The rat knows how to sit and lay down but I've had zero success with any other commands. The others know sit, stay, leave it, down, roll over, highfive, speak, speak quietly (they pretend to bark), go get X (they'll fetch about 10 different objects). Yeah....He just won't leave the chickens alone. Was fine with cats, leaves raccoons, possums, skunks alone, amazing with other dogs, just anything else.


And thank you very much for your advice. I'll do some reading on this particular monster.

 

[Howlet]

Is that your dog in the picture??? I would never let my dog jump up on a cage like that or be in such close proximity to my chickens. By even allowing that type of behavior you are building the dogs drive to harm your birds. My dogs get scolded for so much as looking at one of my chickens for longer than a second or two. To each their own, but i like my dogs to know that my birds are off limits period.

agreed. letting him show any kind of pret drive interest will only make him more curious/ hungry XD

 

[chooks4life]

Thank you for your reply. I've had dogs all my life, he's the only one that I've ever had that's just been "nah, not happening."

We had an intact German shepard/malamute that was similar in energy but he was a country dog and we let him, our chocolate lab, and our German shepard loose in the woods behind my old house. Castration worked wonders on the other two as they became less aggressive shortly after--the lab later became a therapy dog and the Malamute mix became a Pilot dog which is a service dog for disabled people but otherwise, we don't generally alter for any other reason. All of them would be perfect angels around the house, and blood thirsty savages in the woods. Heck, I trained Riley and his sister, she became a therapy dog and Riley, within the last 2 years, has decided that he refuses to sit and stay. It wasn't always like this. The chihuahua is completely untrainable and I think since they're both high energy that they feed into eachother. The rat knows how to sit and lay down but I've had zero success with any other commands. The others know sit, stay, leave it, down, roll over, highfive, speak, speak quietly (they pretend to bark), go get X (they'll fetch about 10 different objects). Yeah....He just won't leave the chickens alone. Was fine with cats, leaves raccoons, possums, skunks alone, amazing with other dogs, just anything else.

And thank you very much for your advice. I'll do some reading on this particular monster.

Wish I had something more helpful to offer, it's a perennial issue. Learning more about training the particular breed is probably the most helpful thing I can suggest. Best wishes with that.

 

[chooks4life]

Guess I'm not being a lot of help here. Riley will kill a chicken. Period. He's a dog - a chicken is a moving target. If he's already attacked and almost killed one he'll do it again, unless you get tough and start working with him. But you can't do that until you decide what you expect of him.....and letting him jump on the pen and stare at the birds until he dozes off ain't the way to get that accomplished. Start with basic obedience - come, heel, no, sit, down and stay - and until you have that down without hesitation, and he'll obey instantly even with distractions you can't do much else. Until then it's leash and confinement away from the birds for Riley. His play drive and birdiness is typical Flatcoat and will be with him most of his life. About the only thing Flatties outgrow is their collar sizes.

It's a good post, the more so because it's specific to his breed and you have firsthand experience with them, but can you offer some suggestions on what you'd do with a dog which would resolutely refuse to perform as per that sentence I bolded in the quote?

I highly doubt Riley lacks basic obedience training, certainly mine never did, nor did the mother of my dog, fat lot of good it did at the end of the day. Basic obedience training never helped us with this dog and his mother, they knew the basics off by heart but always at the end of the day would make up their own mind, and it was always anti whatever they knew was allowed.

I've seen so many dogs almost carbon-copy to them and their mindset now that I have an idea of where the problem is coming from --- a recent ancestry of working dogs mixed with pet dogs. (Particularly Kelpie crosses with terriers). Their worker ancestors failed as working dogs and went on to breed pet dogs who continue to make everyone's lives a misery, using their drive and intelligence to actively work against people, never with them (the very reason they failed as workers in the first place).

Best wishes.