Approved & not Approved Pesticides

[Sunshine Flock]

Do any of you agree that I may be increasing my flock's exposure to mites by using leaves and pine needles as litter inside their coop? I'm not sure about this, but I've given it some thought. It does seem a mite population could boom and flourish inside an enclosed space.

Would that exposure be any worse than what they're exposed to outside, especially considering we're rural and leaves and pine needles are everywhere, including in their run?

 

[Lady of McCamley]

Do any of you agree that I may be increasing my flock's exposure to mites by using leaves and pine needles as litter inside their coop? I'm not sure about this, but I've given it some thought. It does seem a mite population could boom and flourish inside an enclosed space.

Would that exposure be any worse than what they're exposed to outside, especially considering we're rural and leaves and pine needles are everywhere, including in their run?

I personally notice some natural occurrence of mites and "creepy crawly" stuff in my collected pine needles, probably from the abundant wild birds that are in the trees and rodents that run through it (to build nests).

For that reason, I use the kiln dried pine shavings as nothing is left to survive in that process.

While my birds will have some natural build up because they exist in this physical world, I do believe I am limiting the build up by not adding already infested material.

My thoughts.
LofMc

 

[007Sean]

We have a woman on the senior bus that reeks of garlic from every pore. I don't think she has ever had lice or mites, or anyone wanting to sit next to her.

Absolutely, I had a friend that was the same way....he'd eat half a pod of garlic a day....he reeked of garlic.

 

[casportpony]

Technically, if you ever use an unapproved med in your hens, you are to never sell eggs or meat from that bird ever again to avoid residue discovery.

I don't think this is true. As I understand it, any FDA human or veterinary drugs can be used as long as it's not on the banned list and the veterinarian follows a set of complicated rules.
https://www.avma.org/KB/Resources/FAQs/Pages/ELDU-and-AMDUCA-FAQs.aspx

 

[Folly's place]

Not necessarily, and as Lady of McC discussed, there is actual liability if something happens, or there's a complaint. Egg yolks absorb many substances and hold them for a very long time, and that's the issue with laying hens. If there's not a egg withdrawal time listed it probably means for the life of the hen until proven otherwise.
I'm not thrilled with this either, but here we are.
One of the reasons that many of use want to grow our own birds and have our own eggs, is concern with 'factory farming' practices, which have included feeding low levels of antibiotics in feed to the birds. But we think it's okay to use just about any drug available on our birds, and this is good? We'd be horrified to discover that 'factory farm A' was using XXX in their flock!
Mary

 

[casportpony]

Let me use injectable penicillin as an example. I got the feeling that Lady of McC was saying that the eggs and meat of any chicken injected with penicillin could never be eaten.

 

[Folly's place]

That's my impression too. I just spent some time on the FARAD site, and feel the need to make some phone calls tomorrow.
Mary

 

[Lady of McCamley]

I don't think this is true. As I understand it, any FDA human or veterinary drugs can be used as long as it's not on the banned list and the veterinarian follows a set of complicated rules.
https://www.avma.org/KB/Resources/FAQs/Pages/ELDU-and-AMDUCA-FAQs.aspx

No, actually that is true. Even if the veterinary prescribes the med, if it is still FDA "off label" for layers (and note there are no VFD meds listed for layers on the FDA drug listing...which is what you have to go by), then technically the bird can no longer be in the human food chain.

It is a government created conundrum. (Big surprise).

You are expected to treat ailing animals. If you treat said animal with meds that are not labeled for use in your species and purpose, in other words off label and FDA non-approved for use in that animal/use, then the animal must be removed from the food chain.

There are more meds available for meat broilers, OTC and VFD, as those are more problematic for the industry and thus meds are still regularly used (as lobbied by the industry).

However, the layer industry has solved the health issue by simply rotating buildings/fields and flocks...culling anything more than 2 years of age....due to the natural reduction in laying of hens over 2 years. So, there is no interest in expending dollars for the animals, since with careful management most birds under 2 are relatively parasite and disease free, therefore meds have not been lobbied to remain in place.

Organic farmers are prevented from meds/drugs to maintain organic standing, however, they are expected to treat the animal then remove them from the food chain. As you can imagine, the temptation is simply to remove the animal without treating as it is expensive to treat and then keep an animal that is useless for the operation.

BYC owners have recommendations as per FARAD, but these recommendations are slowly being more restricted as products are removed from shelves.

FDA currently is viewing backyard chickens under "pet" classification, but there is more pressure to place them in "livestock" classification because of the risk of their products (meat/eggs) making it to human consumption beyond the family.

LofMc

http://www.usfarad.org/treating-layers.html
per FARAD: "Discerning which medications are approved for use in laying hens can be confusing. In order to determine if a medication is approved for use: 1. check that the medication is labelled for "chickens, all classes." The label may even state for use in layers or laying hens. 2. Determine that the label does not exclude "Laying hens" 3. Determine that a tolerance in eggs exists for the drug. This may be done by checking the VetGram or FDA Animal Drugs websites. For more on tolerances see "Rules & Regulations."

Here is the current VetGram...note any antibiotics are excluded from layers.
http://www.farad.org/vetgram/egglayers.asp

So if you have laying hens, pretty much all that you can legally give them, right now, per FDA approval, is amprolium (Corid) or bacitracin. I did just note under the VetGram that Hygromycin-8/Hygromycin B is on the all class approved list pending January 18th, 3 day withdrawal...no mention of layer exclusion.

That has been off the market without approval, but it looks like it may be coming back on the market. (I will be buying some as soon as it hits the markets).

Remember, these rules change regularly. It can be a real nightmare for the farmer to keep up with them.

And remember, for the BYC owner, do what is right for your family. If the bird is for family use, you can make your own rules according to what you feel is safe.

If you sell or give away eggs, I personally feel it is wise to follow FDA rules or FARAD suggested pull times.

And yes, many BYC people can go to a vet who will prescribe long-standing effective drugs, that are off-label, and then wait a pull time and do what they want with the eggs. But "technically" they are not supposed to do so.

There are no egg police, as of yet, for the little guy. It is only if your eggs were ever tested that you would come under FDA reg liability and penalty if residues were found.

So many use a pull time of 30 days to be certain there is no possibility of any residue being found in a sold or gifted egg. (That usually means the family eats the eggs, or the family dog, depending upon how you feel, and you wait to sell or give away eggs).

LofMc

 

[Lady of McCamley]

That's my impression too. I just spent some time on the FARAD site, and feel the need to make some phone calls tomorrow.
Mary

Yes...that is exactly what I am saying.
http://www.farad.org/regulatory/vfd.asp
http://www.farad.org/publications/digests/122015EggResidue.pdf (See quote at end)

If the drug is not FDA approved for that species and that purpose (meat, laying, breeder, replacement pullet, etc.), then the drug is non-approved and if treated the bird is not sanctioned to be used in the food chain.

Obviously there is some "winking" going on with these rules...not by the big operations as they have regular FDA inspection and are forced into compliance...but the little guy does not have government inspection or oversight.

However, if your meat or eggs were found with residues of un-approved substances, than you do come under the liability of FDA penalty...and as a former paralegal....I personally would not want to have to stand up in court and explain how my eggs didn't make the person sick while also trying to defend that I was not following industry approved standards...doesn't bode well for your case. (See quote at end)

LofMc

Per FARAD article on residue considerations for backyard poultry:
Legalities of Treating Backyard Hens
"Generally, eggs produced by the hens of backyard flocks are not subjected to regulatory testing. However, veterinarians need to be cognizant that, according to AMDUCA, any detectable drug residue in the eggs of a hen that was treated with a drug for which a residue tolerance for eggs has not been established by the FDA is a violation. Although drug residues in eggs are not a regulatory issue when those eggs are consumed only by the owner of the treated hen, they can become a liability issue if those eggs are sold or given away because it represents entry of an adulterated product into the human food chain."

The same would be for any drugs for which residue tolerance has not been established for meat.

 

[happyfrenchman]

This entire discussion has devolved exactly as it always does.... there are no real regulations that govern the medicating of backyard small flocks. There is a mish mash of rules and regulations, none of which really apply to flocks. there might be a FDA notice on one, (that does not apply to backyard flocks). I have had poultry of one sort or another for almost fifty years. There is absolutely nothing (rule wise) that pertains to what we are doing, with private, non commercial pet/livestock. And that is a good thing IMO because who needs the government (or certain posters on the chicken boards) telling people what is and what is not approved, with some "scenario"s that I should be worried about someone eating an egg of mine and then getting sick and having the egg tested. LOL. I will take my chances thanks.... Keeping a few chickens does not have to be a dramatic and complicated undertaking, Does anyone on here know anyone who physically had a problem from any of the "approved" or "unapproved" pesticides? I am betting no.