Articular Gout?

[naylorchic]

@ChickenCanoe We started them on Dumor Chick Starter 20%crude protein/1-1.5%calcium. He ate that until about 10 week probably. Then I started going to the feed store close to my house and I can’t for the life of me figure out what kind of chick starter they gave me. I know it was a medicated chick starter that I continued until they told me my laying hens should switch to laying feed. Which I think was between 16 and 18 weeks. They carried Naturewise which I got the crumble for about a month 16% protein and 3.7-3.9%calcium. Then I started going back to TSC and started Layena Pellets 16% protein and 3.25-4.25%calcium and have continued that since or sometime get the Naturewise Pellet 16% protein and 3.7-3.9 calcium depending if they are out of one or the other.

I do give scratch grains sometimes. I also give left overs which can vary. Like this weekend they got oranges and strawberries. During blueberry season they get tons of those bc I have so many bushes. I do let them free range when I can watch them to keep them out of the flower beds bc they tear them up so bad.

The thing I’m confused about is that from what I read on one hand high protein can cause gout. On the other high calcium can cause it. The grower is higher in protein than what I’m feeding him. So is the assumption that it’s the high calcium so you try the high protein instead?

Thanks again for your help!

 

[oldhenlikesdogs]

I feed a 18% protein so I can also feed some scratch daily without deficiencies. So my birds aren't getting 18% overall. I recommend a 18% because many on this site like to feed treats that lower overall daily protein.

A rooster doesn't need the protein a hen needs to produce a big lump of protein in an egg a day. Mature roosters are already grown. They can't utilize high levels of protein in the diet. Research shows that the ideal protein feed levels in mature roosters is 13%.

Studies associated with excess protein - it especially shows the problem is particularly associated with males.

http://www.poultrydvm.com/condition/gout

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/7393846

https://www.poultryshowcentral.com/chicken_gout.html

https://countrysidenetwork.com/dail...cognizing-and-treating-chicken-foot-problems/

https://www.merckvetmanual.com/poul...s-of-poultry/urate-deposition-gout-in-poultry

Renal issues, whether related to excess calcium or respiratory disease, will exacerbate the negative effects of protein on both the liver and kidneys.

IMHO, too many people on this forum advocate for high protein levels in chicken diets with no research to support that it is necessary or even supportive or possibly damaging.
While chicken chicks and young birds can utilize 18-22% protein, it doesn't take long before that becomes excessive when they are no longer growing bodies. The only time I would provide above 17% protein to adult hens is if they were in molt.

 

[Eggcessive]

Although articular gout looks like a good possibility, With the size of his ankle joints, you might be dealing with mycoplasma synoviae (MS,) a chronic disease that can have mild respiratory symptoms and causes infectious arthritis. Can you check his upper leg joints for swelling?

If it is gout, there are many possible causes. Articular gout is fairly rare in poultry, and can be due to nutritional causes, infectious bronchitis, mold fungus, and others.

During a necropsy, you can see white urates in the tissue of the legs and feet if there is gout, where in MS, those are absent. In MS, there may be yellow exudate around the joints.

Here is some reading that does contain pictures of both diseases:
http://www.thepoultrysite.com/articles/3509/gout-management-in-poultry/

https://www.merckvetmanual.com/poultry/mycoplasmosis/mycoplasma-synoviae-infection-in-poultry

 

[naylorchic]

Although articular gout looks like a good possibility, With the size of his ankle joints, you might be dealing with mycoplasma synoviae (MS,) a chronic disease that can have mild respiratory symptoms and causes infectious arthritis. Can you check his upper leg joints for swelling?

If it is gout, there are many possible causes. Articular gout is fairly rare in poultry, and can be due to nutritional causes, infectious bronchitis, mold fungus, and others.

During a necropsy, you can see white urates in the tissue of the legs and feet if there is gout, where in MS, those are absent. In MS, there may be yellow exudate around the joints.

Here is some reading that does contain pictures of both diseases:
http://www.thepoultrysite.com/articles/3509/gout-management-in-poultry/

https://www.merckvetmanual.com/poultry/mycoplasmosis/mycoplasma-synoviae-infection-in-poultry

I did consider this as well

To me though his feet just look different. They remind me more people I have seen that have really bad arthritis in their hands.

The pics I’ve seen of MS I feel like the toes are still normal for the most part. It usually the ankle joint and hock joint I think it’s called. Can you tell at all in this pic if it’s swollen?


I can try to catch him again sometime to see if I can tell if it’s swollen. He is easier to catch now that he can’t run as fast, but def not easy by any stretch of the imagination.

It looks so painful for him to walk. He walks kind of like a dinosaur or something. I was going to try to give him some aspirin on Sat but he was mad at me for catching him and wouldnt take any food from me.

 

[dawg53]

It's not gout nor MS. I suspect tenosynovitus, a reovirus. There is no treatment.
http://www.thepoultrysite.com/publications/6/diseases-of-poultry/200/reovirus-infections/

 

[naylorchic]

It's not gout nor MS. I suspect tenosynovitus, a reovirus. There is no treatment.
http://www.thepoultrysite.com/publications/6/diseases-of-poultry/200/reovirus-infections/

Thanks for the info Can my other chickens catch it? Should I cull now or as long as he’s eating and drinking and seems relatively happy just take it day by day? Other than walking slow and sitting more often than he used to he seems ok.

 

[Eggcessive]

It would be great if you do cull, to get a necropsy by your state vet to get a diagnosis. According to the link, tenosynovitis, affects more meat birds. This would allow you to know which of the 3 possible diseases you are dealing with, and how to proceed. There is antibiotic treatment and I think, vaccination available for MS, but not the other two. If you find out, let us know, since I am always learning from BYCers who get necropsy reports. You may even be near a good chicken vet who could test for it without culling. Here is a link for finding your state vet:
http://www.metzerfarms.com/PoultryLabs.cfm

 

[naylorchic]

I mean I do have Tylan I could try if it were by chance MS, but I would be concerned if by chance it were gout it would make it worse. I also think if it were MS he would have other symptoms wouldn’t he? One thing that made me me consider MS is he did have a respiratory infection when he was about 6 mo old when I brought in some outside chickens. Which is why I have the Tylan. After a lot of Googling I thought it was prob Coryza. He got well and no symptoms since other than his feet getting progressively worse over prob the past year. Looking at his feet though compared to the MS ones I’ve seen online they just look different me. To me it literally looks like arthritis. Which I think points more to what Dawg says it is or the gout. Neither treatable, but I wonder if NSAIDs would at least relieve the pain. He’s so hard to give med to him bc if I hide it in a treat he’ll hand it right over to the hens.

 

[Eggcessive]

MS can be seen at the same time as MG, if the added chickens when he was young were carriers. You could try aspirin in the water, but the hens would drink it too unless he was penned or crated. The dosage is 325 mg in each 8 ounces of water, and it is best to change the water twice a day. But if you could put it in some cooked egg or tuna, and block him off from the hens to eat it you could get it into him. But if you could get him tested (a PCR test for a mycoplasma panel) that would rule that out. There are vets who could do it, possibly your local NPIP person, or contact the state vet. Are you located in any state where there is a lot of poultry?

 

[naylorchic]

MS can be seen at the same time as MG, if the added chickens when he was young were carriers. You could try aspirin in the water, but the hens would drink it too unless he was penned or crated. The dosage is 325 mg in each 8 ounces of water, and it is best to change the water twice a day. But if you could put it in some cooked egg or tuna, and block him off from the hens to eat it you could get it into him. But if you could get him tested (a PCR test for a mycoplasma panel) that would rule that out. There are vets who could do it, possibly your local NPIP person, or contact the state vet. Are you located in any state where there is a lot of poultry?

Do the toes swell up like his are with MS? I’m in NC. The closest one on that list you sent me is about an hour away, but I think those are just diagnostic labs right? My guess is the state vet would be where the vet college is about 3 hours away. Maybe we’ll try soaking them again this weekend. Can’t hurt anything. He does love eggs so maybe I can get the aspirin in him like that. So he can have a whole 325mg? I bought the 81mg. Guess I’ll crush 4 if he can have all that. I saw that other post with the little chick with the swollen feet so I may try what the post suggested of tart cherry.