Ascites or internal laying-should i atempt draining?

[Donna1001]

I treated Brownie with Baytril (antibiotic), acidified copper sulfate (for crop issues), probiotic (to replenish good gut baterías), lasix (diuretic) and some pain killer. She got some brief relief and would began to eat and drink again when these helped. As soon as I stop these medications, her condition would worsen. But you really can't keep them on these forever. So after about two months of back and forth with these issues, she passed. Others have said they survive this for several years with this condition, but all four of mine that developed egg yolk peritonitis would developed ascites and crop issues at the same time (liquid would drip out of their mouths, they can't eat or drink, soft swollen crop). My FB friends who owns chickens advised me they used garlic, oregano oil as natural antibiotics without having to resort to medications and it helped them. I tried those things and they did not help my girls. But chickens are different. Their chickens would eat chopped garlic on their food where as mine would barely touch their food if I added garlic to it. With Brownie, when I tried to drain her, I can't get anything other than some blood. So I quit doing it. Hers I belief are internal eggs laying at the wrong place that turns into a massive egg glob. My previous hen, after draining her about 3 times, she died. I may have punctured something internally and caused her an infection. I'm really reluctant to do that anymore. Another FB friend used crushed up Diurex Max caplets (OTC water pills the one without the caffeine) into their water and it helped. No draining was performed. Several people strongly against draining them as they see it causes more harm than help. This is about all I can tell you. I saw a youtube video of a woman who performed an autopsy on her ascites chicken and it gave me a glimps of what was going on inside (eggs going to the wrong place in their reproductive system and it became this pound and a half of egg mess that their body cant get rid off. But it can also be fluid they can't get rid off that eventually taxed out their heart. In that case, I gave my hen some OPC 95 a grapeseed extract supplement that helps heart function. I would open a capsule of this supplement and pour it into smaller empty tiny capsules (both I purchased from Amazon)to give to my hens. I purchased Highland Arnica (tiny melt in your mouth pills) that are natural pain killers (People gives these to their animals prior to surgery to help with pain and stress.). Arnica are made for orally or topically where they are also made into ointments to help people with arthritis. I would dissolve one tiny pill with a little water and feed it to my hens. You will have to decide for yourself what to try for your girl. I hope this helps.

 

[LittlePip21]

Thanks for all your replies, I have a therory. I'm not sure if this is true for egg yolk peritonitis but I wonder if the hens health depends on the seriousness of the organ failure? Maybe that's a factor in determining their life span?anyway for me I have someone hold my hen upright with her abdomen facing the ground when I drain. This seems to slim chances down of puncturing organs. I also watch her droppings carefully, they are mostly normal, then as the swelling increases they go from pasty green to foamy liquid. I try and drain her when her droppings get green and liquid, this seems to work best for me. After I drain her she always has a a giant poop. Hope this helps! Also, dont be afraid of a little blood in the fluid, that's exactly what my first draining got. I hope all your hens are doing well, and all the suggestions are appreciated! Ps: I'm so sorry for your losses Donna1001

 

[LittlePip21]

Hey, back with another update, I'm kinda on the fence right now, her droppings were getting green and pasty, but they've gone back to large and brown, she's eating and drinking well. But, her abdomen is getting swollen, and she's breathing a little harder, and she doesn't jump out by herself anymore. I'm worried that if I let it go I could miss my opportunity, but i also don't want to make thing worse. I've had two other hens with this, and they both had a period of doing really good before they get a lot worse. (They were untreated, before I knew what it was) Any advice? I would really appreciate it!

 

[LittlePip21]

Back again! She's still going strong! She seemed to be deteriorating for a little while, but seems doing a little better. Part of the reason may be because I realized that her Lice had returned. So I'm treating with seven but they seem to be growing resistant, so I'm ordering son e permethrin to try. She's doing really well, her walking is much better and she's taking a dust bath all by herself again! She's eating some and drinking pretty good. But after a few bites she acts like she's full. This is probably because of the ascites. Her bloating seems not too severe, but she's lost some weight so it's hard to tell. She is still getting rid of fluid through bowl movements and they have returned to brown, no longer green but still a little watery. They're still not as big as I'd like, but much better. I've noticed her nostrils are still wet, but this doesn't seem to inhibit breathing at all. In fact her breathing is virtually normal. Overall I'd say she's doing well. Your support and prayers are appreciated! Thanks for the support

 

[craftymelissa]

This post was very helpful. Seems similar to what might be going on for AdaIda. Voraciously foraging in the garden for bugs then later in the day then falling asleep standing up in the middle of the yard later.

She had mires and anemia about a month ago but this stress may have caused her crop issues and or peritonitis.

Not sure if I want to go the draining route with her. She is 4.

How is your hen?

 

[LittlePip21]

Hello! It's been a while, so I figured I'd have another update. Craftymelissa my hen is doing alright, thank you for asking! But, I'm afraid her condition might be progressing she was doing really well, but I noticed she was getting very swollen. So I drained a small amount and it was orange. But I noticed I didn't drain very much and she got full again. She then started Having issues with breathing again. So after a while I drained her again, this time I did a third of a cup. But her breathing didn't improve and her droppings were a bright green. My therory is that her body has ajusted to the pressure and now it sees being not swollen as abnormal? It's all so confusing. She also started leaking water from her nostrils again. She is not reabsorbing the fluid anymore or getting rid of it in her droppings. Her droppings did seem to improve after a while though. But, she is having more trouble breathing so I just now tried again. This time the fluid is average yellow, but after I took the needle out some blood (I think it was mixed with fluid) leaked out. I don't think I punctured anything, since there was no blood in the syringe, but I don't know. She is dripping only yellow now and her breathing seems happy. her apitite is still good, and she's still talking and scratching. I really appreciate the support from you guys! She has really good days and some not so good. Thanks for all your replies, support and prayers!

 

[LittlePip21]

Update: doing great! Since I drained her her breathing has been a lot better, and I haven't seen her "water sneezing" hardly at all! She's doing good she's scratching around in her dust bath as I write this.

 

[LittlePip21]

Hey guys, back with another update, a lot has happened since I last posted. I was away last week, but during the time between my last post and my departure she was good. When I drained her I got average yellow fluid, and she was in good health. When I returned, I got sick and wasn't able to drain her for a few days, and she started having watery discharge in her nose again. (I think this is caused by pressure on the lungs.) I was able to drain her yesterday, but the fluid was a murky green. She seemed totally fine though, and was doing all the healthy behaviors. But now today she gave me a scare, she has started puking up greenish yellow liquid. I noticed she first started jerking her head similar to when they eat a lot of food at once and you can see it go down their throats and into the crop. She kept doing this and I tilted her forward and a bunch came out. Then she hopped down for a stroll across the yard. She ate a bunch of Mellon after that. She seemed really bad beforehand. But I think she's "ok" now. I see her once in a while will let some out. I figure this is just a progression of whatever her underlying problem is, but it's just really sad. I'm just trying to keep her as happy as possible, it's just hard to see her so happy one minute and so sick the next. I don't think the puking is because of the draining, the only thing that changed in the routine was that I was out of my regular needles and had to use a longer and thinner one, but I have used them occasionally in the past. and I had a cold, but I wasn't sure what else to do. ( I tried to be as sanatary as possible.) I could really use some advice. I'm trying to make her as comfortable as possible. And I plan to get some probiotic tommorrow, but I'm not sure what else I can do for her. It's just really, really sad . Thanks for all your prayers and support. Let me know if you can think of anything I could try. I'll keep you posted.

 

[LittlePip21]

She seems really good tonight, we'll see where we are in the morning

 

[rebrascora]

Hi

Just want to say you have done incredibly well keeping her going until now but as you are aware, it is only a matter of time with this with this sort of ailment. That said, moulting season is just about here and if you can get her into moult, you may well see an improvement in her condition. What is most likely happening is that she is laying internally. It is a common problem in chickens. The egg yolks released from the ovary drop into the abdominal cavity instead of passing into the oviduct to become eggs as we know them. There is nowhere for them to get out of the abdominal cavity, so they sit there and slowly build up. The pressure of them and the body heat causes some of the fluid in them to leach out (the straw coloured fluid) and the remainder becomes almost "cooked". The fluid that you are draining out is what has leached out of those egg yolks. Once she stops laying (during moult and winter) no more eggs will be released from the ovary and the problem should remain static with no need to drain her until she starts ovulating in the Spring. Obviously the mass of yolks and fluid put pressure on her internal organs. Draining the fluid relieves that pressure but the solid mass of cooked yolks is continuing to build up and becomes the larger part of the swelling and obviously that cannot be drained, so it will get to the point that her organs eventually fail unless she gets an infection first. Unfortunately, the green liquid you just drained suggests an infection may have already set in, especially when she is now having issues with her crop. Much as I am not usually in favour of antibiotic use, there may be some benefit in giving her some now, but it would be best injected since she is displaying crop problems and it will almost certainly not be absorbed sufficiently by the body if given orally. You are of course just trying to buy her time and only you can decide when her quality of life is not sustainable.

I think your girl must be a real tough old bird to keep going so stoically through this ailment and treatment.... can't be pleasant feeling so bloated all the time and being drained so regularly, even though she benefits from it. She obviously has some grit and character!
If antibiotics are not an option, I think it may be time to consider a suitable means of euthanizing her (if you haven't already). Not saying to do it now, as she is obviously still fighting, but just to be prepared because she may suddenly go down hill very rapidly.
I hope I am wrong and you can keep her ticking over until she moults.

Best wishes

Barbara