Ayam Cemani

[boykin2010]

Just so I understand. Because there are a few breeders breeding in United States there is not a standard for the bird? There is a standard for this bird in the country that developed it. Some may feel confident enough to define what the bird is and why. Some may feel confident enough to understand other people's genetic knowledge and determine who has the most knowledge? There is always the possibility that anything could happen the question is one of probability. We bird people are a strange lot that I can say for sure, what may well work in a song may will not work in a bird.

Please post the written standard for this bird if you have it...

 

[Allyn]

Which part would you like? I'll see if I can get it translated for you I'm assuming you don't speak Indonesian.

stand·ard
ˈstandərd/
noun
1.
a level of quality or attainment.
"their restaurant offers a high standard of service"
synonyms: quality, level, grade, caliber, merit, excellence More
a required or agreed level of quality or attainment.
"half of the beaches fail to comply with EPA standards"
synonyms: guideline, norm, yardstick, benchmark, measure, criterion, guide, touchstone, model, pattern, example, exemplar More
2.
an idea or thing used as a measure, norm, or model in comparative evaluations.
"the wages are low by today's standards"
principles of conduct informed by notions of honor and decency.
"a decline in moral standards"
synonyms: principle, ideal; More
a form of language that is widely accepted as the correct form.
the prescribed weight of fine metal in gold or silver coins.
"the sterling standard for silver"
a system by which the value of a currency is defined in terms of gold or silver or both.
3.
an object that is supported in an upright position, in particular.
a military or ceremonial flag carried on a pole or hoisted on a rope.
synonyms: flag, banner, pennant, ensign, color(s), banderole, guidon; More
a tree or shrub that grows on an erect stem of full height.
a shrub grafted on an erect stem and trained in tree form.
BOTANY
the large frequently erect uppermost petal of a papilionaceous flower.
BOTANY
one of the inner petals of an iris flower, frequently erect.
an upright water or gas pipe.
4.
a tune or song of established popularity.
adjective
adjective: standard
1.
used or accepted as normal or average.
"the standard rate of income tax"
synonyms: normal, usual, typical, stock, common, ordinary, customary, conventional, wonted, established, well-established, settled, set, fixed, traditional, prevailing More
antonyms: unusual, special
(of a size, measure, design, etc.) such as is regularly used or produced; not special or exceptional.
"all these doors come in a range of standard sizes"
(of a work, repertoire, or writer) viewed as authoritative or of permanent value and so widely read or performed.
"his essays on the interpretation of reality became a standard text"
synonyms: definitive, established, classic, recognized, accepted, authoritative, most reliable, exhaustive More
denoting or relating to the spoken or written form of a language widely accepted as usual and correct.
"speakers of standard English"
2.
(of a tree or shrub) growing on an erect stem of full height.
(of a shrub) grafted on an erect stem and trained in tree form.
"standard roses"
Origin

More
Middle English (denoting a flag raised on a pole as a rallying point, the authorized exemplar of a unit of measurement, or an upright timber): shortening of Old French estendart , from estendre ‘extend’; sense 3 of the noun, influenced by the verb stand.

 

[Allyn]

You know the things that were arguing about really don't make any sense. These are my points.
1. In Indonesia the Cemani is always 100% black with no red or white ever.
2. There is not an internationally recognized standard.
3. Because there's not internationally recognized standard anyone can say anything about it. They can say it has red, white anything with black bone.
4. This should not be about personalities.
5. I guess this is just all part of the process for determining what the specifics qualities of a bird will become an internationally recognized standard.

 

[boykin2010]

You said there was a standard in the country that developed the Cemani.

Id like to see it please

 

[Allyn]

I would invite you to go to Indonesia as I have. Travel around all the different bird markets talk with the translator about the quality of the birds. See 40 or 50 pure black Cemani. What they consider their standard and agreed upon Specific traits. But unfortunately maybe not fitting a western idea of a Registered, Official, documented, Found on the web, In English, Internationally accepted, standard. I understand you might not consider that a true standard. For some of us having a country's prize chicken that they have developed over centuries upon centuries that is deeply appreciated and held in Reference might be people who have a standard. I understand you have a desire to see it in your format, we all have what we would like. What i said and i stand by is there is a standard for the Cemani in Indonesia For some if it doesn't fit their criteria they think it doesn't exist. I don't hold that opinion myself. I feel so bad not getting what you request in a way you can understand. I will do my best to find it in a format that meets with your understandings.
I do find it interesting that some say that there is no real standard but eggs sold meet that standard. Peculiar Perspective at best.

 

[Sonoran Silkies]

Just so I understand. Because there are a few breeders breeding in United States there is not a standard for the bird? There is a standard for this bird in the country that developed it. Some may feel confident enough to define what the bird is and why. Some may feel confident enough to understand other people's genetic knowledge and determine who has the most knowledge? There is always the possibility that anything could happen the question is one of probability. We bird people are a strange lot that I can say for sure, what may well work in a song may will not work in a bird.

For there to be a standard, the bird must be APA and/or ABA recognized. That is something that takes years, multiple breeders and many birds. Having a standard does not distinguish that something is or is not a breed. It is an arbitrary agreement about the characteristics and traits that something should have.

 

[Allyn]

I think you might mean and would be good to say there is a APA and ABA standard. I thought this quite good.

http://greenfirefarms.com/2011/08/playing-the-landrace-card/

 

[Boggy Bottom Bantams]

For there to be a standard, the bird must be APA and/or ABA recognized.  That is something that takes years, multiple breeders and many birds.  Having a standard does not distinguish that something is or is not a breed.  It is an arbitrary agreement about the characteristics and traits that something should have.

That's exactly what I was trying to get at Sonoran. Here, there is no standard. Honestly to date I have not seen a standard for any country on the breed. Allyn, I understand what you were saying. In general the people of its origin know what do look for but that does not dictate a standard of perfection. The post you made supposedly showing the Indonesia standard does not even make sence . Nothing about it even references a bird of any kind . Maybe something was lost I. translation? If they do in fact have a written standard I'd like to see it. But here in the US as well as Europe as far as I know, there is not one due to the over all rarity of the fowl here. Its no different than our ohiki we have though. We know what the Japanese standard calls for and even though the US does not recognize them yet, we how are breeding them have just privately adopted the Japanese version to go by.
This is why, if there is a written version in Indonesia , wed like to see it. But, if there isn't, well then you can't really post saying yes there is one there. A group of market farmers breeding one way does not constitute a national standard of perfection, imo

 

[Oldhound]

Julia Keeling posted the Dutch Standard for Ayam Cemani on FB. This is an interpretation by the Dutch. I have no way of knowing how close this comes to Indonesian requirements. I sincerely hope that this Forum provides a learning experience.

: Indonesia
Classification: Rare
Egg Colour: White or tinted
The Cemani fowl originates from the Indonesian archipelago. In 1998, the first examples came to the Netherlands, and in 2008 to Britain. There is some variety in type, but most look rather gamey, and all have single combs. The main characteristic of the breed is the intense black feather colour in combination with black skin colour, including face, earlobe and comb. Black skinned fowl are valued in many Asian countries for eating in ceremonial traditions.

General Characteristics: male
Type and Carriage: General appearance alert and quite gamey.
Body: medium sized, slim, firm and muscular, wings held strongly to body. Alert bearing
Breast: fairly broad, full and firm.
Back: back medium length, sloping from the neck; saddle hackle rather short.
Wings: long, large and strong, held slightly high at the shoulders. held tight to the body, and not resting on the back. Shoulders – wide and firm.
Tail: held a little high; moderate spread with narrow, medium length sickles. Rump - moderately developed. Parson’s Nose small, and firm, little fluff.
Head: of medium size. Face – black and smooth. wattles medium, small black earlobes, eyes large and full of expression, dark brown to black with black pupils. Comb – single, usually with five points, black. Back of comb not following down the line of the neck. Beak – firm, well curved, black.
Neck: long and firm; the neck hackle reaching to the shoulders.
Legs and Feet: Thighs medium, powerful, set well apart, good bend of hock. Straight parallel medium length shanks - black. Four toes long, strong and well spread, with prop toe standing well back and firm on the ground – black. Well-developed spurs in mature male birds
Plumage: Feathers quite short and close-fitting
Handling: Firm and muscular.
Female
The general characteristics are similar to those of the male, allowing for natural sexual differences. The back line of the hen can be less angled, the face is often a more intensive black.
Colour
Plumage – Black. Green sheen is not so obvious as in some black breeds. Skin, face, comb and legs – Black.
Weights
Male 1.8–2kg (approx 4–4½lbs)
Female 1.2-1.5kg (approx 2¾-3½lbs)
Ring Sizes: Cock 18mm (E18) Hen 16mm (D16)
Scale of Points
Feather Colour 20
Skin Colour 30
Type 15
Legs and feet 10
Head 10
Condition 15
Serious defects
Carriage too horizontal. Tail carriage too high or too low. Wings hanging down. Legs too short. Too little black pigment in the skin colour.

 

[Allyn]

It gets so strange for me when people put words in my mouth. I did not say that they had a written standard of perfection for the bird. What I did say is that they have a standard. The standard means that there's qualities that they look for in the Breed that they have developed in the breed in over hundreds of years. Different people have different ways of judging what makes a standard look up the word. Everyone wants to define things the way they want. You can deny that the Indonesians have a standard for one of their national symbols and you can do that because it doesn't fit a written criteria that you find acceptable doesn't mean that anyone else has to. Or that it doesn't make any sense. It might not make sense to some, It is certainly true that much doesn't make sense to me but I think we are all trying to develop a consensus How Ever be it in a very strange and convoluted manner.