Ayam Cemanis Trial & Error

[Blue Eager]

I have been breeding AC's for about 4 years without much success. No matter how hard I try, leakage greatly outnumbered non-leakage birds. I did some online searches and located a breeder in southern Colorado (I'm from NM). She sent me some photos and I was sold. I purchased a dozen chicks from her & she tossed in a dozen more. After a month or so I ended up keeping only 7 & culled the rest. Culled birds were horrendous. Leakage on those birds were much worse than those culled from my flock. At any rate, I collected 24 eggs during the last couple of month's or so from the 7 Colorado birds, of which 23 are fertile & will begin hatching in 3 days. The cockerel is quite a looker from my own stock & all are about a year old.

Point being, it has been my experience that no matter how much attention is given to selective breeding there will always be the dreaded off color with some hatches. Is this just me or is this par for the course with respect to Cemanis?

 

[EggSighted4Life]

Is this just me or is this par for the course with respect to Cemanis?

Hi there.

I'm gonna go out on a limb and say that breeding any chicken... you will always have a greater number of culls than keeps if you are selecting for quality. I consider it par for the course in all breeds and varieties.

Doing test matings and hatches can help identify who is throwing your best and worst birds. Continuing to add unknown genetics might not be helping.. and some point you might decide to work with what ya got.

I worked with several breeds and varieties... and honestly only about 1% are truly keepers in my experience... though I often end up keeping 10% out of need... yes that means out if every hundred birds... I only keep 10 or less... usually less.

We eat my male culls regardless of breed, even Silkies. If I don't have the time for processing them, they become compost to fertilize plants. I sell of my female culls as laying or pet birds not intended for show or breeding. Culling (dispatching that is) at a month old would probably keep me in the poor house.

Many folks will focus on something like color leakage while their body type goes out the window. So try to remember that just because it might be the easiest to see doesn't make it the most important thing to work on per say. Check your split wing, comb sprigs, etc.

You are 100% correct though in that no matter how much selecting you do there will ALWAYS be something popping up in the offspring... genetics is complicated by so many things we can't see also... a perfectly good looking bird could be throwing a hidden trait.

Show breeders know this and that's why they can't guarantee any chicks you get from them will be show quality or winning birds. If they advertise show quality chicks it just shows their ignorance of the whole process and they are trying to get more $. They can have show winning parent stock, and still not produce show winning offspring... and if they do, it won't be high percentages.

That's one thing that makes it challenging to get good quality stock in back yards... most folks simply don't have the means to hatch and raise enough birds to get where YOU want to be. And that's another reason to work with only birds you truly love.. it's very time consuming and demanding not to mention costly... hence, the higher cost of most breeder birds compared to hatcheries.

Once you become real familiar with your breed... you may be able to tell culls at hatch by something as simple as toenail color.. once learning what the different pheno/geno types (can't keep those words straight yet) end up growing out like.

4 years is a good run, so I don't mean to discount your experience by any of my suggestions. No matter how long I've kept poultry, I keep learning new things all the time... and getting new interests!

But to me.. no, your experience is not abnormal. Please note.. if you are culling at one month old... that might be too soon as they are still going through several mini molts and *may* still molt out some of what you are concerned with. I know, I was able to tell leakage on my FBCM by then on some.. but it was pattern leakage not down fluff.

Have you looked into line breeding or spiral breeding?

Sorry I can't be more help... but YES, I feel your pain! Keep up the hard work, it's not for the faint of heart.

 

[Blue Eager]

EggSighted4Life, that is a superb explanation & it sets my mind at ease. You are also exactly correct in saying some of us are so focused on one or a couple of traits that we lose sight of others just as important. I always find myself referring to “Ayam Cemani Breeders Association’s”, “Standard of Perfection” to gauge how my birds are performing. I think I’m doing ok at this point in time. Here are a couple of pix. Obviously the roo’s tail feathers molted. Hopefully they’ll grow back soon. He’s quite the looker when he’s fully dressed.

I would be curious to know from those familiar with this breed what you think…am I on the right track?

 

[Delkana]

EggSighted4Life, that is a superb explanation & it sets my mind at ease. You are also exactly correct in saying some of us are so focused on one or a couple of traits that we lose sight of others just as important. I always find myself referring to “Ayam Cemani Breeders Association’s”, “Standard of Perfection” to gauge how my birds are performing. I think I’m doing ok at this point in time. Here are a couple of pix. Obviously the roo’s tail feathers molted. Hopefully they’ll grow back soon. He’s quite the looker when he’s fully dressed.

I would be curious to know from those familiar with this breed what you think…am I on the right track?

I think You need to get a better quality one if you wanna improve your flocks. How much have u gone so far since u started 4 years ago? Most important thing from breeding cemani is inside the mouth, thats the most difficult one to work with (at least thats what i think).

 

[Blue Eager]

Delkana, several online discussions with other Cemani breeders have made it quite clear in my mind that an all black, including inside the mouth given US strains are far and few between. Out of 60+ birds only three of mine exhibited all black mouths. Unfortunately those birds were also culled due to floppy combs.

As for needing better quality stock I think I have done just that. The birds in the photos are by far the best stock I have had thus far so I will continue to breed them throughout this year keeping the best offspring & breeding them next year. I think that’s all a breeder can do.

With this in mind I think it is important to note that I contacted one of the most celebrated online breeders by some who advertise their birds as ALL Black including the mouth and sells chicks for $99.00 each with a minimum order of 6. I posed this question to them; can you guarantee that all the Cemanis I purchase from you will be all black including their mouths, their long drawn out explanation in short; No.

 

[Delkana]

Ok im also learning here, what kind of leakage did u encountered exactly? Some of my birds have grey spot on its tongue, some got white/light grey on the tip of their beak and toenails and some have mullberrys (usually appear after the 16th week). I usually keep the one with the most black colored tongue, and get rid of the rest.

 

[Blue Eager]

I concur I think we are all learning.

Prior to my current stock all of my birds came from a local breeder & leakage was everything from mulberry & drooped combs to pink feet & white toes with the offspring getting even worse so I opted to start fresh. I am cautiously optimistic that this breeding stock will produce less of the undesirable traits & tip the scales in my favor.

FWIW; the word from the breeder I purchased this stock from is they are direct descendants of the original stock purchased by GFF. She said a friend of hers purchased the stock & she in turn purchased the birds from him. I have no reason to doubt her. On the down side her entire flock was attacked by a predator or predators & she lost everyone of them. This horrible incident happened only a couple of months after I purchased the chicks.

This is my goal & I refer to it often; https://ayamcemani.us/standard-of-perfection/
I will be able to get a pretty good idea of what to expect as the first batch started pipping last night.

 

[Blue Eager]

Candling revealed 1 of the 23 eggs not fertile. 7 out of 22 hatched so far & out of those 1 had to be culled. 3 are three days old & I was able to examine those up close. 2 have excellent color including inside the mouth as per guidelines of black or gray. I will examine the other 3 in a day or so. The remaining eggs are scheduled to hatch in 3 & 5 days.

What am I looking for at this stage, day 3? Good fibro with no discoloration inside the mouth, nails, vent, down feathers, wing tips, & foot pads.

 

[Blue Eager]

The remaining 3 have been inspected & 2 of these chicks exhibit all the characteristics I am looking for at this stage. The 2 that did not make the cut looked great on the outside although both had pink inside the mouth. So 4 out of 7 is by far the best results I have had to date. I anticipate even better chicks are still to come given my 2 best hens are not yet receptive to the roo. All in all quite pleased.

11 more eggs are in lock-down & will hatch in 2 days or so, leaving only 4 more which are scheduled to hatch in 5 days.

Hopefully I can post a few photos of the chicks in about two weeks.

 

[Delkana]

Not much you could do on the early stage. I usually keep till week 16 (4months) to see the progress before deciding whether or not to cull them.
Please take pics inside the mouth, im curious