B.Y.C. Dorking Club!

[dorkings]

Can someone tell me what ALBC stands for.
Thank you,
Lisa

 

[ki4got]

Can someone tell me what ALBC stands for.
Thank you,
Lisa

http://www.albc-usa.org/ - The American Livestock Breeds Conservancy.

other acronyms that may turn useful...

APA - American Poultry Association - http://www.amerpoultryassn.com

SPPA - Society for the Preservation of Poultry Antiquities - http://sppa.webs.com/

SOP - the APA Standards of Perfection - a must have for anyone attempting to breed poultry to the breed standard. (available from the APA website).

 

[dorkings]

http://www.albc-usa.org/ - The American Livestock Breeds Conservancy.

other acronyms that may turn useful...

APA - American Poultry Association - http://www.amerpoultryassn.com

SPPA - Society for the Preservation of Poultry Antiquities - http://sppa.webs.com/

SOP - the APA Standards of Perfection - a must have for anyone attempting to breed poultry to the breed standard. (available from the APA website).

Thank you!!

 

[dorkings]

10 new Silver Gray peeps the girls did good or should I say the Rooster did good!!

 

[pysankigirl]

I am new to chickens and I was sitting down at the pen watching them and looking at them for the first time with a critical eye and wondering if I have "nice" chickens or not. Probably not, because I got them from a hatchery, right? (Ideal) But I have NO IDEA what makes a chicken a nice chicken or not. from reading this thread, I think I've gotten that the rear toes should be really rear facing and perhaps the comb should only have one straight lilne of bumps? as to what the color on a SG dorking should be at this age, I have NO IDEA. (they are 7 weeks?)

does anyone have a picture of a nice 7 week old that I could look at to compare?

 

[ki4got]

I am new to chickens and I was sitting down at the pen watching them and looking at them for the first time with a critical eye and wondering if I have "nice" chickens or not. Probably not, because I got them from a hatchery, right? (Ideal) But I have NO IDEA what makes a chicken a nice chicken or not. from reading this thread, I think I've gotten that the rear toes should be really rear facing and perhaps the comb should only have one straight lilne of bumps? as to what the color on a SG dorking should be at this age, I have NO IDEA. (they are 7 weeks?)

does anyone have a picture of a nice 7 week old that I could look at to compare?

at 7 weeks the only thing i can suggest, is look at breast color. if it's silver grey, red or colored dorking, then a reddish breast is pullet, black is a cockerel. otherwise they're so 'inbetween' stages that there's not really much else to gauge. by 12 weeks you should see their overall shape, but then they get on with the growth spurts again and look all out of whack for a while more.

 

[Yellow House Farm]

Joseph,
Thank you for being part of this group, and for sharing your knowledge and experience with the rest of us. I am new to Dorkings, only got them as substitutes when Sandhill couldn't fill one of the requested breeds in my order, but am now so enthralled with them that I am considering becoming a serious breeder. The post that you wrote in 2009 on culling decisions for the Dorking Club will be an excellent road-map for me if I decide to go forward with this breed. I appreciate the work you put into writing it.
You're welcome. I'm glad to help. Each person that decides to dedicate himself or herself to the Dorking increases it's possibilty of becoming once again an excellent breed.


I was wondering what you think is an appropriate expectation of quality when ordering chicks from a breeder, whether it be a private breeder, a large commercial hatchery, or a unique hatchery like Sandhill. I ask this because I am new to breeding chickens, but I am very familiar with numerous professional dog and cat breeders who have grand champion stock in their breeding lines. I have found that breeding animals that are the best of their breed does not mean that all the offspring will be perfect. With a litter of 6-10 puppies, you may get one POTENTIAL champion, maybe a few excellent contenders, but mostly just great looking dogs that are wonderful pets and hopefully meet the breed standard, but should never be bred. And this is with the very best stock from the breeders with the very best judgment in pairing their animals. When you buy from non-professional breeders you rarely find any show contenders in the offspring, and you're lucky to find puppies (or kittens) that even fully meet the breed standard.
It sounds like you have your answer. Don't expect much; expect a beginning. Dorkings are currently far from being top show quality. In my thought, that's alright, though. This is our journey.

So that's my background, and now I'm thinking of breeding Red Dorking chickens. Wanting to be a responsible breeder, I started reading posts from the Dorking Club and BYC, and am amazed at how disappointed (or angry) people are about the quality of birds they are getting from hatcheries. When people buy day-old chicks from a commercial hatchery do they really expect that 100% of them will meet the breed standard? Is that even reasonable? Or are my expectations too low? I would never expect to get a high percentage of excellent quality birds from a typical commercial hatchery, any more than I would expect to get a high percentage of excellent quality dogs from a puppy mill. It takes generations of work to perfect a line of dogs or cats, and then once you've approached that goal (you never really reach it) the genetics that you've spend years "perfecting" makes those puppies and kittens worth substantially more money than those from the non-professional breeder. So what do people expect for their $3-$6 per chick???? Do they really expect every chick to be a foundation bird for their breeding program with that kind of investment? What percentage of chicks do you think should meet the breed standard from a large commercial hatchery? Or from a good private breeder? And what percentage of chicks would you expect to be very high quality within the breed standard from those same retailers?
Dorkings are rare, indeed. Moreover, in all of the four primary colors--red, white, colored, and SG--there are no existing long-term breeders of high quality stock currently out of the closet; ergo, if they're around, they're not currently accessible, nor is their stock. If you want to begin with reds, beg some stock from Rudy. Dick Horstman's stock may also be a nice beginning.

My Sandhill Red Dorkings are now 6 weeks old. I have 13 of them -- 7 pullets, 5 cockerels, and one very feminine boy (or masculine girl -- haven't decided yet). None have any obvious disqualifications. They are all impressively vigorous. All have excellent feet conformation, beak shape, and skin color. Most of the combs are good but only a few are perfect. Of the 7 pullets, 3 of them have truly excellent size and body shape for the breed, and another 3 have good size and shape (to my newbie's eye). One is a little too tall, a lot too narrow, the legs are quite thin, and she is way too flighty, so she will never be used for breeding, even though she has excellent color. Of these 7 pullets, 4 have excellent color, 2 have good color, and one has fair color. The temperaments on 4 of them are excellent, acceptable on another two, and too flighty on one. Of the 5 cockerels, the conformation is excellent on 3 and fair on 2. Unfortunately, the color is spectacular on the 2 with only fair conformation, so there will be some very difficult decisions to make in a few months. The color on the three with excellent conformation is unimpressive on one but quite good (and improving daily) on the other two. The temperament on all 5 of the boys is good at this time. I will possibly keep up to 6 of the 7 pullets for breeding, although probably not all to the same male, and possibly to males from a different source to increase diversity. All 5 of the boys have some traits that are desirable, so the decision of who to keep will be more difficult. Being that they are still so young, I'm hoping that the boys with excellent color will develop better conformation in the next month, or those with excellent conformation will bloom with new color. The one androgynous chick has a complex patina of VERY flashy red color everywhere (but not appropriate for this breed), is broad in the shoulders but quite narrow towards the tail, is very short-backed, is too tall and quite flighty, so it will never be used for breeding.
Sand Hill reds are a fine place to begin. With them, I'd try to get something, even if just a cock, from Rudy to add to the mix. If I were in your stead, and now I'm just talking personal mores, I'd just get going where you are. Every year you work with them is progress that they make. At this point the fun starts. You have your variety; so, it's time to start considering breeding patterns and facilities.

So none of my 13 chicks is perfect, but only one is totally wrong for the breed (the androgynous chick). But considering that I only paid $6 per chick for a rare breed, and ended up with 11 out of 13 really nice chicks, I couldn't be happier. In fact, I think I'm incredibly lucky. Honestly, for that price with this breed, I would have been happy with one nice pullet, one nice cockerel, and 11 really tasty meals (or egg layers, or pasture pets, depending on their personalities). Developing a flock that consistently meets the breed standard takes a lot of work and planning, and it won't happen with one purchase of hatchery chicks. That's why it's good that the culls are either so delicious, or lay wonderful eggs, or are such wonderful pets. But the reality is that not all of them will be breeding quality, or even identifiable as a purebred. That's just how genetics works. It''s unfortunate that some people posting are so unrealistic in their expectations.
None of them will be perfect, but they'll be a beginning. Don't expect perfect soon, just a little better each year. Until you really know your stock, after multiple seasons of breeding, don't cull too soon. Barring major deformities, I'd wait to at least 24 weeks old.

Since I'm new to the breed, I'm wondering if there is a book or website that both explains and shows pictures of all the traits I should be evaluating in my stock. Something that shows a wide spectrum of examples from poor quality to excellent quality and everything in-between, and explains the specifics of how excellent vs poor is determined, would really help me learn how to select proper breeding stock. Shows can be a wonderful way to determine if your breeding program is on the right track, but only if there's enough birds of the same breed and the judges have enough expertise in that breed. A judge that doesn't share a breeder's priorities can redirect a novice to the wrong path. Plus there's the travel, expense, stress on the birds, and potential for disease transmission. I would consider going to shows, but not until I develop some expertise.
Buy a Standard of Perfection ASAP from the American Poultry Association. Just start reading it over and over again. Go to the ALBC website and read their educational matierials on poultry improvement. Read John Henry Robinson's Principles and Practice of Poultry Culture, G. T. Kleins Backyard Poultry Keeping, Harry Lamon's The Mating and Breeding of Poultry. Walter Hogan's The Call of the Hen. Certainly start going to shows. They're an awesome way to concretize and continually refresh your resolve to improve your Dorkings. Moreover, you'll start to learn about other aspects of breeding that can be translated into your program to enhance your technique.

Thank you for contributing your knowledge to all of us. I know working with newbies can sometimes be frustrating (in every profession or hobby), but we really do need, and appreciate, your mentorship.
--April

 

[pysankigirl]

gotcha...so 12 weeks in chickens is like in dogs where briefly at 8 weeks you can kinda tell how their proportions are looking?
I have 6 girls and a boy. I lost two chicks unfortunately. I see where it was recommended for reds to get a good roo from a reputable breeder to improve your chicks. any idea Who does really nice SG breeding that I could get a few chicks from? I feel like such an ignorant chicken owner at this point, but I don't want to increase the number of poor quality dorkings in the world.

 

[Yellow House Farm]

gotcha...so 12 weeks in chickens is like in dogs where briefly at 8 weeks you can kinda tell how their proportions are looking?
I have 6 girls and a boy. I lost two chicks unfortunately. I see where it was recommended for reds to get a good roo from a reputable breeder to improve your chicks. any idea Who does really nice SG breeding that I could get a few chicks from? I feel like such an ignorant chicken owner at this point, but I don't want to increase the number of poor quality dorkings in the world.

There is hearsay that says that at 13 weeks one can see where your birds might be heading, and I have seen this to a point. I wouldn't make this an age at which to cull, though. It's too risky until one has been breeding one's stock for a long time.


At this point in breeding Dorkings, we all produce a lot of culls with hopefully a few that take us further along the path. It is, indeed, a numbers game. It's going to take a while.


The only long-term, out-of-the-closet Dorking breeders with accessible stock that I know are Roger Tice and Ed Hart. Roger Tice used to breed reds. Rudy now carries on his stock and will continue to improve it, I'm certain. Ed is an excellent gentleman. He breeds whites and rc coloreds. Ed's stock was part of our beginning. To my knowledge, there are no longer term breeders of SG's who also commonly make stock available to others. There are a few breeders here who have been working with them for a few years.

I've mentioned in prior posts, and I still hold the view, that, in my opinion, it's best to think of Dorking breeders as currently resetting the clock. We're starting from scratch. When one visits shows and sees some of the fantastic Leghorns, Rocks, Reds, and Australorps, one comes to understand just how far behind the Dorkings are--even the best Dorkings. There are so few pools of genetic material available for Dorkings that I feel that all have some merit. I don't think we should be focusing on non-Standardized colors; they're more of an illusion that anything else. The one exception here would be th RC reds and coloreds, which really should be in the Standard and can be pulled through the same pools as the SC reds and coloreds, adding to the genetic diversity in a powerful fashion.

One needs seed stock, and then one begins. What becomes of much more importance and interest is one's breeding program. Ideally, once you have birds, you don't want to have to bring in new blood for years to come, if ever. I sense that there are often high levels of misunderstanding on this level, and this is, in a way, one of the most important things. High quality Dorkings will come out of controlled, pedigreed in-breeding. Each breeder needs to look at the various, established methods of breeding and decide which is best, or which combo is best, for his or her farm. For a while we were working with rolling breeding, but now clan breeding dominates our program. We maintain four clans in each breed with which we work. One does not need large numbers; one needs control over who is breeding with whom, and one needs enough diversity in one's program to create patterns, or lines, which do not become too tight, while, at the same time, being closely enough related to pass on highly similar traits--which is still pretty close.

Essentially, we are in the process of establishing new strains, which will only really happen with a kind of directed discipline. This is one of the reasons for which I'm dismissive of non-Standard colors. Being realistic, it will take a decade to have Dorkings of standard quality in the four principle colors. It will take two decades or more to have them be so strong as to win champion English at a reputable show. The non-Standard colors will take a life-time to perfect, and for what? They have no historical value, nor are they a hidden resource. They come from crossing the four principle colors. They can be recreated at any given time. Indeed, twenty or thirty years from now with excellent whites and outstanding SG's, we can recreate blacks, or birchens, or cuckoos, or what have you, in a jiffy. At least then they'd actually look like Dorkings. If we don't do the work, or should I say, have the fun, of creating powerful strains of Dorkings in the four principle colors now, in thirty years there will literally be no Dorkings. There are practically no Dorkings now.

We establish breeding programs with multiple cock birds, with folk who do a lot of reading; we breed in number, cull heavily, toe-punch, wing-band, and keep records. Let's all pay close attention to Don Schrider's program as written on the ALBC website.

 

[Jwhip]

I agree with you 100 percent Joseph. I purchased 2 trios of white Dorkings from Ed Hart last fall and have hatched a few chicks 65+. I have called Ed one than once to talk Dorkings and he is always willing to share information. He is a gentleman. My goal someday is to compete in the English class and work for that Best Large Fowl award.