B.Y.C. Dorking Club!

[Rockashelle]

Ok... Here is an updated picture of the boys from today. They are the two with the color... You can't see the green in the picture. The cockerel on the right "Alfred" has some green feathers coming in over his shoulder just under the white feathers coming in around his neck. His back is brown and then fades to tan.

The middle Cockerel is "Spartacus" and he still only has white feathers coming from the middle of his back down. Bizzare.

"Theseus" is the one on the left. He's just kind of plain, but has white "veins" in his feathers.... hmmm?

Not sure what to think about these boys, looks like we have a ways to go before I decide who stays & who's dinner. I tried to get a better picture but it started pouring. When will they be fully feathered? They are 14 weeks now.

 

[Yellow House Farm]

These are, all three, Colored Dorkings. Time will tell how true to standard their color will be. The "veins", appearing at the shaft of the feather being light colored, is referred to as shafting, which is a desired quality in colored Dorkings in specific areas.

 

[Sydney Acres]

Joseph,
Thank you for being part of this group, and for sharing your knowledge and experience with the rest of us. I am new to Dorkings, only got them as substitutes when Sandhill couldn't fill one of the requested breeds in my order, but am now so enthralled with them that I am considering becoming a serious breeder. The post that you wrote in 2009 on culling decisions for the Dorking Club will be an excellent road-map for me if I decide to go forward with this breed. I appreciate the work you put into writing it.

I was wondering what you think is an appropriate expectation of quality when ordering chicks from a breeder, whether it be a private breeder, a large commercial hatchery, or a unique hatchery like Sandhill. I ask this because I am new to breeding chickens, but I am very familiar with numerous professional dog and cat breeders who have grand champion stock in their breeding lines. I have found that breeding animals that are the best of their breed does not mean that all the offspring will be perfect. With a litter of 6-10 puppies, you may get one POTENTIAL champion, maybe a few excellent contenders, but mostly just great looking dogs that are wonderful pets and hopefully meet the breed standard, but should never be bred. And this is with the very best stock from the breeders with the very best judgment in pairing their animals. When you buy from non-professional breeders you rarely find any show contenders in the offspring, and you're lucky to find puppies (or kittens) that even fully meet the breed standard.

So that's my background, and now I'm thinking of breeding Red Dorking chickens. Wanting to be a responsible breeder, I started reading posts from the Dorking Club and BYC, and am amazed at how disappointed (or angry) people are about the quality of birds they are getting from hatcheries. When people buy day-old chicks from a commercial hatchery do they really expect that 100% of them will meet the breed standard? Is that even reasonable? Or are my expectations too low? I would never expect to get a high percentage of excellent quality birds from a typical commercial hatchery, any more than I would expect to get a high percentage of excellent quality dogs from a puppy mill. It takes generations of work to perfect a line of dogs or cats, and then once you've approached that goal (you never really reach it) the genetics that you've spend years "perfecting" makes those puppies and kittens worth substantially more money than those from the non-professional breeder. So what do people expect for their $3-$6 per chick???? Do they really expect every chick to be a foundation bird for their breeding program with that kind of investment? What percentage of chicks do you think should meet the breed standard from a large commercial hatchery? Or from a good private breeder? And what percentage of chicks would you expect to be very high quality within the breed standard from those same retailers?

My Sandhill Red Dorkings are now 6 weeks old. I have 13 of them -- 7 pullets, 5 cockerels, and one very feminine boy (or masculine girl -- haven't decided yet). None have any obvious disqualifications. They are all impressively vigorous. All have excellent feet conformation, beak shape, and skin color. Most of the combs are good but only a few are perfect. Of the 7 pullets, 3 of them have truly excellent size and body shape for the breed, and another 3 have good size and shape (to my newbie's eye). One is a little too tall, a lot too narrow, the legs are quite thin, and she is way too flighty, so she will never be used for breeding, even though she has excellent color. Of these 7 pullets, 4 have excellent color, 2 have good color, and one has fair color. The temperaments on 4 of them are excellent, acceptable on another two, and too flighty on one. Of the 5 cockerels, the conformation is excellent on 3 and fair on 2. Unfortunately, the color is spectacular on the 2 with only fair conformation, so there will be some very difficult decisions to make in a few months. The color on the three with excellent conformation is unimpressive on one but quite good (and improving daily) on the other two. The temperament on all 5 of the boys is good at this time. I will possibly keep up to 6 of the 7 pullets for breeding, although probably not all to the same male, and possibly to males from a different source to increase diversity. All 5 of the boys have some traits that are desirable, so the decision of who to keep will be more difficult. Being that they are still so young, I'm hoping that the boys with excellent color will develop better conformation in the next month, or those with excellent conformation will bloom with new color. The one androgynous chick has a complex patina of VERY flashy red color everywhere (but not appropriate for this breed), is broad in the shoulders but quite narrow towards the tail, is very short-backed, is too tall and quite flighty, so it will never be used for breeding.

So none of my 13 chicks is perfect, but only one is totally wrong for the breed (the androgynous chick). But considering that I only paid $6 per chick for a rare breed, and ended up with 11 out of 13 really nice chicks, I couldn't be happier. In fact, I think I'm incredibly lucky. Honestly, for that price with this breed, I would have been happy with one nice pullet, one nice cockerel, and 11 really tasty meals (or egg layers, or pasture pets, depending on their personalities). Developing a flock that consistently meets the breed standard takes a lot of work and planning, and it won't happen with one purchase of hatchery chicks. That's why it's good that the culls are either so delicious, or lay wonderful eggs, or are such wonderful pets. But the reality is that not all of them will be breeding quality, or even identifiable as a purebred. That's just how genetics works. It''s unfortunate that some people posting are so unrealistic in their expectations.

Since I'm new to the breed, I'm wondering if there is a book or website that both explains and shows pictures of all the traits I should be evaluating in my stock. Something that shows a wide spectrum of examples from poor quality to excellent quality and everything in-between, and explains the specifics of how excellent vs poor is determined, would really help me learn how to select proper breeding stock. Shows can be a wonderful way to determine if your breeding program is on the right track, but only if there's enough birds of the same breed and the judges have enough expertise in that breed. A judge that doesn't share a breeder's priorities can redirect a novice to the wrong path. Plus there's the travel, expense, stress on the birds, and potential for disease transmission. I would consider going to shows, but not until I develop some expertise.

Thank you for contributing your knowledge to all of us. I know working with newbies can sometimes be frustrating (in every profession or hobby), but we really do need, and appreciate, your mentorship.
--April

 

[Sydney Acres]

Hi Amy,
I'm in Stanwood, WA, about 35-45 minutes northwest of Snohomish. I don't have any pullets available now, but am thinking of breeding Red Dorkings in the future, so I may have some in 1-2 years. I currently have 13 Red Dorkings that are 6 weeks old from Sandhill Preservation Center. Seven are pullets, 5 are cockerels, and one is still undecided. Three of the pullets are almost certain to be breeding quality, and another three may also be, depending on how they develop. All 5 of the cockerels have several desirable qualities, but one that is really a standout for body type is developing some nice color also. I don't know if you're only interested in Colored Dorkings or if you'd also be interested in Reds, but since you're local and interested in Dorkings I'd love to meet you. Is there a way we can get each other's e-mail addresses through this site without posting them publicly and generating tons of spam?
--April

 

[ki4got]

Quote:

Joseph,
Thank you for being part of this group, and for sharing your knowledge and experience with the rest of us. I am new to Dorkings, only got them as substitutes when Sandhill couldn't fill one of the requested breeds in my order, but am now so enthralled with them that I am considering becoming a serious breeder. The post that you wrote in 2009 on culling decisions for the Dorking Club will be an excellent road-map for me if I decide to go forward with this breed. I appreciate the work you put into writing it.

I was wondering what you think is an appropriate expectation of quality when ordering chicks from a breeder, whether it be a private breeder, a large commercial hatchery, or a unique hatchery like Sandhill. I ask this because I am new to breeding chickens, but I am very familiar with numerous professional dog and cat breeders who have grand champion stock in their breeding lines. I have found that breeding animals that are the best of their breed does not mean that all the offspring will be perfect. With a litter of 6-10 puppies, you may get one POTENTIAL champion, maybe a few excellent contenders, but mostly just great looking dogs that are wonderful pets and hopefully meet the breed standard, but should never be bred. And this is with the very best stock from the breeders with the very best judgment in pairing their animals. When you buy from non-professional breeders you rarely find any show contenders in the offspring, and you're lucky to find puppies (or kittens) that even fully meet the breed standard.

So that's my background, and now I'm thinking of breeding Red Dorking chickens. Wanting to be a responsible breeder, I started reading posts from the Dorking Club and BYC, and am amazed at how disappointed (or angry) people are about the quality of birds they are getting from hatcheries. When people buy day-old chicks from a commercial hatchery do they really expect that 100% of them will meet the breed standard? Is that even reasonable? Or are my expectations too low? I would never expect to get a high percentage of excellent quality birds from a typical commercial hatchery, any more than I would expect to get a high percentage of excellent quality dogs from a puppy mill. It takes generations of work to perfect a line of dogs or cats, and then once you've approached that goal (you never really reach it) the genetics that you've spend years "perfecting" makes those puppies and kittens worth substantially more money than those from the non-professional breeder. So what do people expect for their $3-$6 per chick???? Do they really expect every chick to be a foundation bird for their breeding program with that kind of investment? What percentage of chicks do you think should meet the breed standard from a large commercial hatchery? Or from a good private breeder? And what percentage of chicks would you expect to be very high quality within the breed standard from those same retailers?

My Sandhill Red Dorkings are now 6 weeks old. I have 13 of them -- 7 pullets, 5 cockerels, and one very feminine boy (or masculine girl -- haven't decided yet). None have any obvious disqualifications. They are all impressively vigorous. All have excellent feet conformation, beak shape, and skin color. Most of the combs are good but only a few are perfect. Of the 7 pullets, 3 of them have truly excellent size and body shape for the breed, and another 3 have good size and shape (to my newbie's eye). One is a little too tall, a lot too narrow, the legs are quite thin, and she is way too flighty, so she will never be used for breeding, even though she has excellent color. Of these 7 pullets, 4 have excellent color, 2 have good color, and one has fair color. The temperaments on 4 of them are excellent, acceptable on another two, and too flighty on one. Of the 5 cockerels, the conformation is excellent on 3 and fair on 2. Unfortunately, the color is spectacular on the 2 with only fair conformation, so there will be some very difficult decisions to make in a few months. The color on the three with excellent conformation is unimpressive on one but quite good (and improving daily) on the other two. The temperament on all 5 of the boys is good at this time. I will possibly keep up to 6 of the 7 pullets for breeding, although probably not all to the same male, and possibly to males from a different source to increase diversity. All 5 of the boys have some traits that are desirable, so the decision of who to keep will be more difficult. Being that they are still so young, I'm hoping that the boys with excellent color will develop better conformation in the next month, or those with excellent conformation will bloom with new color. The one androgynous chick has a complex patina of VERY flashy red color everywhere (but not appropriate for this breed), is broad in the shoulders but quite narrow towards the tail, is very short-backed, is too tall and quite flighty, so it will never be used for breeding.

So none of my 13 chicks is perfect, but only one is totally wrong for the breed (the androgynous chick). But considering that I only paid $6 per chick for a rare breed, and ended up with 11 out of 13 really nice chicks, I couldn't be happier. In fact, I think I'm incredibly lucky. Honestly, for that price with this breed, I would have been happy with one nice pullet, one nice cockerel, and 11 really tasty meals (or egg layers, or pasture pets, depending on their personalities). Developing a flock that consistently meets the breed standard takes a lot of work and planning, and it won't happen with one purchase of hatchery chicks. That's why it's good that the culls are either so delicious, or lay wonderful eggs, or are such wonderful pets. But the reality is that not all of them will be breeding quality, or even identifiable as a purebred. That's just how genetics works. It''s unfortunate that some people posting are so unrealistic in their expectations.

Since I'm new to the breed, I'm wondering if there is a book or website that both explains and shows pictures of all the traits I should be evaluating in my stock. Something that shows a wide spectrum of examples from poor quality to excellent quality and everything in-between, and explains the specifics of how excellent vs poor is determined, would really help me learn how to select proper breeding stock. Shows can be a wonderful way to determine if your breeding program is on the right track, but only if there's enough birds of the same breed and the judges have enough expertise in that breed. A judge that doesn't share a breeder's priorities can redirect a novice to the wrong path. Plus there's the travel, expense, stress on the birds, and potential for disease transmission. I would consider going to shows, but not until I develop some expertise.

Thank you for contributing your knowledge to all of us. I know working with newbies can sometimes be frustrating (in every profession or hobby), but we really do need, and appreciate, your mentorship.
--April

Welcome to the dorking world. 8) they are an addictive breed I think.

I agree, Joe is a great resource for anyone new to the breed (or any heritage breed).

i'm going to try and see what points you made that i can comment on... as for expectation of quality, typically hatcheries will NOT be your first choice, if you're looking for exceptional birds. but that said, it's also often the easiest place to get stock to start with. and any stock IMO, is better than none... the breed has suffered neglect over the years and often isn't what it once was, but that, as a breeder of dorkings, is my goal. to increase size, improve conformation, and promote the breed to those who have never heard of them. that's my biggest challenge right now in selling excess stock. nobody knows what dorkings are and prefers to go with breeds that are more common.

as for 'breeder quality' I think some poultry breeds are following along the same route as some dogs or cats, becoming almost unrecognizable from what they were just 50 years ago. my goal as a dorking breeder is to bring the breed BACK to what it was 50 or more years ago. I started to say "rather than breed to what someone *thinks* it should look like now", but that's what I am doing. I'm breeding toward my own interpretation of the breed standard.

I started with some silver greys from murray mcmurray (MMcM) and while they do have some minor issues, overall i'm impressed with their size conformation and personalities. I also got stock from Sandhill, and while they are a good resource for the lesser known colors, they are a breed preservation center, and do not breed toward a certain standard. as such, their dorkings are not *quite* up to breed standards IMO, but provide a starting place to work from. I wasn't overly impressed with my sandhill chicks at the beginning, none of them seemed to have that 'dorking-ness' that my silver greys did from the beginning. but as they grow, it is filling in bit by bit and they are now more like i expected they should be. someone pointed out to me (privately) that different colors and lines may mature differently, and not to judge one by another's standards. and that is very true i'm learning.

i'm not new to poultry, but i'm still fairly new to dorkings, having researched them for a bit over a year, and actually having them for just under a year now. but i'm committed to this wonderful breed, and eager to promote them to others looking for the same qualities that drew me to them. at first I said i wanted to work with 3 colors, red, silver grey and colored, but reality hit me (after getting my sandhill order) and i realized that realistically i'm set up for 1 color, with a few extras on the side. others had told me this when i first started, and either i didn't want to hear it or thought i could do it 'my way'. LOL but they were right. so i'm concentrating on silver grey, and going to keep a trio/quad of the other colors on the sidelines for more genetics research to determine what colors go into making the red/sg/colored what they should be. that's part of my passion with poultry, the genetics behind different colorations.

ok i got a bit sidetracked... LOL easy for me to do. i work from home for a local call center, and surf a bit between calls, so sometimes the train of thought gets a bit derailed along the way. but i think i hit a few of the points at least. LOL

if you go to Joe's website he's got an excellent article there about selecting/culling (maybe the one you were referring to, i'm not sure). but pick first for size and overall conformation. then look at some of the more minor considerations, like comb and feet. THEN look at color as the very last consideration, if all the other points are good. basically evaluate the bird using the same order of preference given in the SOP.

Another thing i'd like to mention, which came to mind reading your post... i would NOT recommend selecting and culling at an early age. dorkings are slow growers, and i'm finding some of my bigger birds are ones that started off small. so keep them as long as you possibly can, at least up until the girls are laying IMO. some of the old time breeders would cull only obvious defects at an early age, and then cull the birds for size around a year old. i've also read where hens would go thru a second cull, if they did not go broody by the end of their second summer, which ensures that the breed will remain good brooders.

as for books, the only book i can recommend 100% is the APA Standards of Perfection. that will guide you more surely than anything else. I have a friend who shares what i need now and then, but plan to get one of my own ASAP. but that's probably closer to christmas at this point. LOL

as for going to shows, i'd say get to all you can, and if possible talk to the judge afterwards and ask why he chose one over another, if there are dorkings there. that might help you see what points are being looked at. but at the same time, accept that a judge is simply a person with an opinion, take his and all that you've learned, and formulate your own opinion of what you're seeing and go from there.

 

[neopolitancrazy]

Hello, Amy!

I, too, am a newby to Dorkings but wanted to share with you what I have learned.

From this thread, and common sense, I have learned you can cull for obvious deformities as soon as they appear. There is also a reported window at 12-13 weeks when you can cull for type. (My first batch of Sandhill dorkings are only ~6 weeks old.)

The ALBC has an excellent article, complete with explanatory photographs, on culling for increased productivity in heritage breed chickens.

I own Jan E. Irving's book on Dorkings and found it interesting, but not helpful when planning a culling strategy.

I have ordered leg bands and a copy of the SOP. I will band the "best" 25% of my chicks now, and re-evaluate at 12 weeks, using the SOP and the ALBC article.

Good luck with your Dorkings,
Angela

 

[ki4got]

I, too, am a newby to Dorkings but wanted to share with you what I have learned.

From this thread, and common sense, I have learned you can cull for obvious deformities as soon as they appear. There is also a reported window at 12-13 weeks when you can cull for type. (My first batch of Sandhill dorkings are only ~6 weeks old.)

The ALBC has an excellent article, complete with explanatory photographs, on culling for increased productivity in heritage breed chickens.

I own Jan E. Irving's book on Dorkings and found it interesting, but not helpful when planning a culling strategy.

I have ordered leg bands and a copy of the SOP. I will band the "best" 25% of my chicks now, and re-evaluate at 12 weeks, using the SOP and the ALBC article.

Good luck with your Dorkings,
Angela

i agree with angela, common sense goes a long way for a lot of things.

around 12-13 weeks they DO show a lot of what they'll look like down the road. but unless they're WAY off at that point, i don't cull until they're at least laying (about 5 months). by then any side sprigs on the combs are noticable, as well as the overall body shape, especially when viewed from above. i've noticed some pullets with a bit of taper at 12 weeks filled out more at 5 months, and some wider ones when young go narrower later on. but for me, the picking i do at 12 weeks (ish) is, do they LOOK like dorkings. long and low, short legs, and how are their feet? now that i've got enough to pick from, i am culling based on feet too somewhat. but if my choices are limited i'll take good size and type with bad feet over great feet but 'looks like a leghorn'. LOL

as for banding, i band all chicks with colored zip ties by hatch group, then, thanks to those wonderful 5th toes, i usually band my dorking chicks with adult-sized spiral bands (size 11) around 4-6 weeks. (since i hatch often, i came up with using different color/combo each week) without that extra toe, the bands would fall right off, but the toe keeps them on long enough to grow into them. then i put their pernament aluminum bands (color coded by year) on once i decide if they stay or go, and mark color, number, hatch date and spiral band color. each hatch gets a different color or combo, then once they're mature if i have more than 1 or 2 with the same color/combo i'll add another color to ID one from the other. for example, i used black bands on my original trio. the roo didn't need an extra since he's the only black banded roo. the hens, i have black/blue and black/yellow so i know which is which.

i reserve white bands tho, for culls. if it's got foot/comb issues (4 toes, duckfooted, side sprigs, 'wavy' combs) early enough on, i'll white band them, and continue monitoring them. if they are better quality (except for duckfooted or wavy combs) than any of the other chicks, the white band comes back off the left leg and joins the colored one on the right (as a 'reserve') bird. side sprigs and 4 toes on one or both feet, they are culled. period. if they are too upright and 'leghorn-ish' or short bodied, they also earn a white band.

the culls get a chance to be someone's backyard layer first by going to the poultry swaps. if they don't sell, they'll eventually meet the freezer. the roos usually go to the 'rooster man' ($5 each). i remove the white bands to use again later once they're no longer part of my flock. (one way or the other).

it took some playing around with banding options, but seems to be working well this way. that way i can re-use the spiral bands year after year, only adding some here and there to replace what are lost or damaged, or if i run out for some reason. i have 20 bands for each of 10 colors. ok yeah maybe i'm a bit OCD about marking my birds, but i like to know at a glance which is which. those sandhill chicks are driving me, since i've got so many of each variation and they all blend in.

 

[Rockashelle]

Hey April!

Absolutely! I will PM (Private Message) you my email address. I am excited that you are local as well. I almost feel alone in Washington (Pacific Northwest). I know of two other breeders locally that I would be happy to share with you. They both have Silver Greys. No Reds though… I’m sure there are more of us out here; it’s just a matter of finding them. Originally, I thought that I was receiving Silver Grey Dorkings and have found that I actually got “colored” dorkings. I have to admit that I was a little disappointed at first but I am growing quite fond of them and the colors are growing in beautifully. Of course, I’m being very careful not to make my choices based off of beauty. I love the Reds too, however; my space is limited and believe I should stick to one color. I have to hold myself back, not easy to do. I tend to jump into things with both feet and can get carried away easily. I also have a few lavender orpingtons, and blue laced red Wyandottes that I am now debating on if I should just keep the hens for summer layers and cull the roos. (My kids will have a fit!) I’m far more interested in “perfecting” the dorking (which I know could take years). I love a good challenge.

Regardless of what colors we have, I would love to meet. It would be great to bounce ideas off of each other for selecting the right “type”. It would be nice to have an opinion / help deciding which ones to keep and evaluate body, comb, feet, etc. It would be great to split chick orders with someone as well, unless of course, you have a LARGE operation and plan on ordering in bulk. My husband will “cull” me if I get too carried away. LOL!

Sounds like you got a better split. I ended up with 4 cockerels and 1 pullet. LOL! It is exactly opposite of what I was hoping for. I am hopefully picking up two pullets in the next week or so from one of the contacts I made, but they are SG’s. She’s been breeding for type for quite some time it sounds like. She said she hasn’t quite got the size she would like yet but confirmation is great. I’ll keep you posted.

Angela,

Thanks for the info. Every bit I can get… I will take. I enjoy learning about the heritage of these birds and their presence even more!

Joseph,

Ditto to what April said. You are a great resource and always look forward to your opinions. I have learned a lot from what you have posted here.

Thanks for your time, effort, and patience with us “newbies”!

Karen,

Love seeing your pictures and advice as well! Thanks for your opinions/help!

Amy

 

[Sydney Acres]

Hi ki4got,
I like your banding system. It's a great way to stay organized. Do you find that the size 11 band works well into adulthood for both the hens and the roos, or do some of your roos need a size 12? I had planned to order both sizes, but will stick with size 11 if that's all I need.
--April

 

[ki4got]

Hi ki4got,
I like your banding system. It's a great way to stay organized. Do you find that the size 11 band works well into adulthood for both the hens and the roos, or do some of your roos need a size 12? I had planned to order both sizes, but will stick with size 11 if that's all I need.
--April

the sizes are in 16ths of an inch... so 11 = 11/16, 12 = 12/16 (aka 3/4) and so on... and yes, i chose a size that would be large enough to still float over their leg easily but small enough that won't fall off, and work for both hen and roo... for other breeds without that 5th toe, i might go snugger on the band size. the bands do have some variation in them too, depending on where you get them, but for the most part anything from a 9 to 12 will probably work. the aluminum bands i use have 3 holes, so you can fit to the bird better, but are permanent, not adjustable, which is why i wait until about 5 months before i put them on.