B.Y.C. Dorking Club!

[ki4got]

Thanks so much for all the great info! I live close to sandhill and have red dorkings from them! I was hoping to get a different line to add to my breeding program! I have been extremely happy with sandhill, I also have cuckoo dorkings from them..I am just looking to get closer to standard.

then i would suggest eggs/chicks from rudy troxel and dick horstman for sure.

i've got a trio of rudy's chicks (2 pullet 1 cockerel) that i'll be posting pics of as they grow. right now they're mostly fluff still.

my reds from sandhill were all over the place as far as color is concerned. no 2 are alike, ranging from tannish to almost as dark as the colored girls.

 

[Kibi78704]

April,
THANKS for all of those links! I'm adding them to my Dorking presentation.
Cheers,
Kibi

 

[Chambertin]

I've been trying to figure out just what breed of chicken I have.
I'm off in China so the typical breeds are a little different, and every name is completely different.
Matching what I knew about the chiciken from the farm where we got them: "An English chicken that is mostly black and white."
I found Dorkings, these chicks also have 5 toes, one with 6 if you count toenails, which also matches the Dorking description.

Well, recently the believed cockrel has been sporting some serious 80's metal hair. This makes me wonder if I have dorkings or something else. Maybe someone will run across this post and give me a hand.

Here are some pictures.

Closeup of the puff.


The profile of the 80's metal hair. Our poult has a similar feather outcrop but much smaller and no golden tint to the black on the wing feathers.


A while back before the wild feathers really came in.

 

[Kibi78704]

Check out https://www.backyardchickens.com/t/462216/five-toed-breeds for a discussion on 5-toed breeds.

 

[ki4got]

the 5 toed breeds are: dorkings, faverolles, houdans, silkies and sultans. i might vote for a houdan cross considering 5 toes clean legs and crest and color (mottled houdan are black and white)

maybe even pure. here's a pic of a mottled houdan chick i found online

 

[Chambertin]

Wow thanks for two fast replies.
I checked out the other breeds with 5 toes right after I got the chicks. I crossed most of them off before I saw pictures because of the country of origin and coloration.

I think you are right that with the chick appearance and other info its likely to be a mottled Houdan. I was just looking at some pics myself, quite an interesting breed.
Really should have taken a closer look at the breed, but the farmer was really proud her family imported the birds from England many years ago so I guessed Dorking.
Black and white dorking looked like a good match.

Sorry I cant join the Dorking club just yet...
Thanks again and best to you and your flocks

 

[ki4got]

honestly only the silver grey roosters have the black and white patterning (unless it's another variety i'm not familiar with).
dorking chicks are chipmunk striped.


silver grey roo, hen, chicks. (full sized images are in my profile)

 

[Sydney Acres]

Hi everyone,
I have a newbie question. In regard to the Red, Colored, Silver Grey, and White Dorkings, I assumed that they were each separate breeds. But now that I'm looking into Dorkings more I'm finding people say things like, "I bought two CDs and one turned out to be a SGD," or "I bought a group of RD chicks and some turned out to be CDs." So now I'm looking at all 13 of my 10-week-old RDs and realizing that of my five best-framed pullets, one has the perfect coloring for a CD. So now I'm really confused.

In Dorkings, what determines whether a bird is a RD or a CD or a SGD -- is it the genetic pedigree or the appearance? Is my dark-colored pullet a poorly-colored RD or an excellent-colored CD?

When I think of this situation in other species, I can find examples that go both ways. In Labrador Retrievers, all the colors of yellow, black, and chocolate are still the same breed, but just different colors. The color genetics are fairly complicated, but predictable if you know the genotype of each parent. So, depending on the genotypes, you potentially can get black or yellow or chocolate puppies from parents of any color, and the puppy is classified as a black or yellow or chocolate Labrador based on its appearance, not its genetics. On the other hand, a chocolate Labrador that has a Chesapeke Bay Retriever-type haircoat is still a (poor quality) chocolate Labrador. It doesn't get to become a Chesapeke Bay Retriever just because it looks like one.

I feel silly asking such a basic question, but I really don't know the answer.
--April

 

[heritagehabitatfarms]

it is best to keep the color's separate... BUT some ppl don't if you ordered all 3 colors and then ended up with males of one color and females of another color... and you bred them together then u get messed up colors for generations to come... and when you have a couple hundred dollars tied up in birds its hard not to try to recoup some of that money by selling some offspring...

Hi everyone,
I have a newbie question. In regard to the Red, Colored, Silver Grey, and White Dorkings, I assumed that they were each separate breeds. But now that I'm looking into Dorkings more I'm finding people say things like, "I bought two CDs and one turned out to be a SGD," or "I bought a group of RD chicks and some turned out to be CDs." So now I'm looking at all 13 of my 10-week-old RDs and realizing that of my five best-framed pullets, one has the perfect coloring for a CD. So now I'm really confused.

In Dorkings, what determines whether a bird is a RD or a CD or a SGD -- is it the genetic pedigree or the appearance? Is my dark-colored pullet a poorly-colored RD or an excellent-colored CD?

When I think of this situation in other species, I can find examples that go both ways. In Labrador Retrievers, all the colors of yellow, black, and chocolate are still the same breed, but just different colors. The color genetics are fairly complicated, but predictable if you know the genotype of each parent. So, depending on the genotypes, you potentially can get black or yellow or chocolate puppies from parents of any color, and the puppy is classified as a black or yellow or chocolate Labrador based on its appearance, not its genetics. On the other hand, a chocolate Labrador that has a Chesapeke Bay Retriever-type haircoat is still a (poor quality) chocolate Labrador. It doesn't get to become a Chesapeke Bay Retriever just because it looks like one.

I feel silly asking such a basic question, but I really don't know the answer.
--April

 

[ki4got]

Hi everyone,
I have a newbie question. In regard to the Red, Colored, Silver Grey, and White Dorkings, I assumed that they were each separate breeds. But now that I'm looking into Dorkings more I'm finding people say things like, "I bought two CDs and one turned out to be a SGD," or "I bought a group of RD chicks and some turned out to be CDs." So now I'm looking at all 13 of my 10-week-old RDs and realizing that of my five best-framed pullets, one has the perfect coloring for a CD. So now I'm really confused.

In Dorkings, what determines whether a bird is a RD or a CD or a SGD -- is it the genetic pedigree or the appearance? Is my dark-colored pullet a poorly-colored RD or an excellent-colored CD?

When I think of this situation in other species, I can find examples that go both ways. In Labrador Retrievers, all the colors of yellow, black, and chocolate are still the same breed, but just different colors. The color genetics are fairly complicated, but predictable if you know the genotype of each parent. So, depending on the genotypes, you potentially can get black or yellow or chocolate puppies from parents of any color, and the puppy is classified as a black or yellow or chocolate Labrador based on its appearance, not its genetics. On the other hand, a chocolate Labrador that has a Chesapeke Bay Retriever-type haircoat is still a (poor quality) chocolate Labrador. It doesn't get to become a Chesapeke Bay Retriever just because it looks like one.

I feel silly asking such a basic question, but I really don't know the answer.
--April

they are distinct varieties of a single breed. the genetics determines the color. but with red and colored, there is a lot of variation, especially with the sandhill birds. they never say so specifically, but i have a feeling some birds have been crossed somewhere down the line. the colors SHOULD breed true, but the colored specifically won't, and the red sometimes doesn't either.

the problem with poultry genetics, is you're not working with just 1 gene that has different shades/colors to it. there are over a dozen different genes in chickens that affect the color, pattern, melanizing, fading, etc. some of them combine in odd ways too, so the results aren't always predictable (in mixing breeds).

in the dorkings, the red is the easiest (or should be). it's black breasted red duckwing. next is the silver grey. silver is a dominant sex linked gene that overrides red. if the bird has only 1 silver gene, it will have golden (rather than red) hackles, saddle and back. 2 copies of the gene, the bird should have no red at all. instead red is replaced by silvery white. both red and silver grey should breed true when bred to the matching partners. then there's colored. according to the SOP, it is a melanized version of the silver grey, with black striping down the hackles and the hen is a more 'black' version of the sg with black edging to the (dark) salmon breast feathers. in europe this variety is known as the 'dark' dorking. but what's been bred as a colored for as long as anyone can remember, seems to be a golden version of the colored with straw/gold hackles (few have the striping) and the hen is a melanized version of a red.

the sandhill colored seem to range from being a true 'dark' to a gold (single silver gene) and the hens are any melanized combinations of silver red and colored to nearly black with just lighter (silver tan or gold) shafting.

when i first started researching the genetics, without actually HAVING any of the red or colored yet, what I thought we had were silver, bbr with mahogany added to give the deep rich red colors, and for colored, bbr with the dilution gene and added melanizing factors. then i was told, no, that's not right. it's silver, bbr, and melanized silver. but where did the straw/gold hackles that people were calling colored come from? and why wouldn't they breed true?

now that i HAVE the red and colored dorkings, i've gone back to my original assessment and believe to preserve the strains people crossed the red and colored together. in my sandhill chicks (these are all pullets btw) , i've got colors ranging from a super faded silver (silver + dilute), silver, 'dark' (silver + melanizing factors), tan (red + dilute), red, dark red (red + mahogany), colored (melanized red with heavy striped hackles and salmon breast with dark edging), light colored (faded melanized red with tan/gold shafting and lighter salmon breast with dark edging), dark colored (nearly black with some light shafting ranging from silver to light red, varying shades of breast from nearly pink to brown with dark edging.)

there are more possibilities than i've listed, since dilute, mahogany, and melanizing genes have a 'step' type effect, in that 2 copies of the gene give you a much 'louder' effect than just a single copy. (sorry, couldn't think of the word that would work in place of loud, but hope you get the idea.) for example, lets use red. a red cock with 1 copy of the dilute gene will have nice golden hackles, much like a single gene of the silver would. 2 copies of the dilute gene make that gold more straw colored. on the other end of the spectrum, you have no dilute, but mahogany. 1 mahogany gene will darken the red hackles/saddle slightly and the back will become more burgundy. 2 copies you will have a dark mahogany red hackle and even darker back. now where the problems with these 2 genes lies, is when they're combined, because they have the effect of canceling each other out. 2 dilute & 2 mahogany genes, you've got a bird that looks like a normal red.

I believe that's what's happenned to the colored and reds in recent (and maybe not so recent) years. they've been crossed and the mahogany has traveled over to the colored and the dilute to the red. the melanizing factor also has a step effect too, where a single copy of the gene gives some hackle striping and edging on the breast, and 2 copies gives a much darker effect.

i've kept a small group of pullets that roughly fit each grouping, and by selectively breeding them to specific cocks I should be able to narrow down the varieties over a number of generations, into their 'pure' form. that is my long term project. regardless of the SOP for colored, my goal is a golden straw colored hackle/saddle with definite striping, slightly darker back, and the hen to have golden straw shafting and a salmon breast with dark tips, much like the SOP calls for. the reds I plan to work with will be the rich mahogany red with darker backs and clear hackles/saddle as called for in the SOP. I also hope to perfect a true bbr strain as well, with NO other genes involved. no silver, mahogany, dilute or melanizing.

oh. and that reminds me... i think somewhere along the line brown was introduced into the gene pool too since some pullets appear to have this gene as well, but those are in the cull pen.

but regardless of color, my primary goal is to perfect that which makes a dorking what it is. a large long bodied short legged 'barge' of a bird (to quote davek). hubby calls them 'low riders'. so even tho i'll be working with various colors, only birds of suitable size and type will be selected to carry on.

my silver greys will continue on in the quest for size and the finer points of type, Rudy's reds will continue on the same, and then my project will evolve as it will, with the hopes to some day have strains of true breeding colors that have nearly been lost or at least 'muddied' somewhat.

wow. sorry about the novel.