Barnevelder breeders lets work together and improve the breed

[Happy Chooks]

My birds are from Trisha, and this is what I'm seeing in my flock as far as chest coloring. I personally love this coloring and my hens have great lacing. I've mostly been lurking in this discussion. I'd like to see what Walt has to say about Trisha's pictures.

 

[poultch]

Hi everyone,
sorry for jumping in this thread, but I don't stop by BYC much, and a friend sent me a link to this thread.

I live in New Zealand, so don't have any skin in your argument, but maybe I have something that is of value to you guys

I breed Barnevelders, am a judge & on the standards committee/council here and in a few months NZ will have a revised standard printed. The Barnevelder standard has been revised, some colours/varieties added and one existing colour completely re-worked.

Personally, I am not a fan of the british standard for Barnevelders, it's a bit confused and confusing and up until now we have (along with Australia) have adopted the British standard as the template.

However, the males' chest lacing is to remain, remembering it is just one sentence, and I think you will find you might need to revise the hackle and the saddle marking of the male aswell. Also the wording is adequately vague enough to not exclude very thick lacing, but a very open chest laced male will show other faults in the saddle, hackle, coverts a decent judge should pick this up, and its these sorts of males that do not breed nicely double laced females.

But my advice would be just start to show the males as they are. I have won best barnevelder in show with 'pullet breeding' males, so show yours, alongside some females, this is the best way to affect change - from the ground up, rather than a top down directive.

 

[aghiowa]

Hi all. I am jumping in here. I've got 3 pullets that originally came from Trisha (tls ranch) as hatching eggs (an acquaintance of mine bought eggs, hatched them, and sold some to me as chicks). They were hatched on March 15, so are about 15 weeks old now. I've started showing poultry in the last year and have been muddling around trying to find "my" breed. I've decided to try Barnevelders. I had a cockerel, but lost him to gnats (they're terrible here in Iowa) and so am on the lookout for a male. In the pullets I have, I like the leg color, and the lacing is decent (and I love the sheen!), but they do have weak wings and one even has what appears to be split wing (I will most likely not breed her.)

So..long story short...Any idea where I can find a decent male? How do these ladies look so far? Is it worth beginning a breeding program with them? If so, I assume any males I can find, I should look for one with a nice tight wing to offset the weakness in the females? And, I apologize for any of my ignorance - I am new to this.




Thanks,
Angela

 

[pickledchicken]

Hi all. I am jumping in here. I've got 3 pullets that originally came from Trisha (tls ranch) as hatching eggs (an acquaintance of mine bought eggs, hatched them, and sold some to me as chicks). They were hatched on March 15, so are about 15 weeks old now. I've started showing poultry in the last year and have been muddling around trying to find "my" breed. I've decided to try Barnevelders. I had a cockerel, but lost him to gnats (they're terrible here in Iowa) and so am on the lookout for a male. In the pullets I have, I like the leg color, and the lacing is decent (and I love the sheen!), but they do have weak wings and one even has what appears to be split wing (I will most likely not breed her.)

So..long story short...Any idea where I can find a decent male? How do these ladies look so far? Is it worth beginning a breeding program with them? If so, I assume any males I can find, I should look for one with a nice tight wing to offset the weakness in the females? And, I apologize for any of my ignorance - I am new to this.




Thanks,
Angela

I can't think of anyone close to you ? I wish you where closer I have 3 cockerels available. I do sell hatching eggs if you wanted to go that route.

 

[cvandermerwe]

I can't think of anyone close to you ? I wish you where closer I have 3 cockerels available. I do sell hatching eggs if you wanted to go that route.

I have barnies from a few lines, near DeWitt, IA.

 

[mountainvieworchards]

I think it is healthy that we are having this discussion about the standard and perhaps it is a growing pain of the Barnevelder breed that there is some disagreement. I understand feelings get hurt and people come on strong at times or at least their comments seem to be so in this medium. For the record and to advance the discussion further I have responded to some of Royce's earlier comments and for you that have been following the recent thread about changing the standard for the male Barnevelder from one requiring lacing on the breast to one that allows an all black breast.

As in all my comments I try to make it not a personal thing and I consider all Barnevelder people as friends, but yet I feel free to speak my mind: R: = Royce's comment and A: =my response or a further question.

R: I am totally opposed to changing the SOP just for the sake of going to an all black breast because it's "easier".

A: I don't want to do so because it’s easier, I don’t recall Trisha suggesting that as a motivation either. Though should it turn out that way it would be an additional benefit remember the old rule of K.I.S.S.

R: It's called the Standard of PERFECTION for a reason!

A: How many times have I heard this? If you don’t mind me asking Royce, What IS the reason it is called Standard of “Perfection”? Isn’t that all just a bit of 19th century puffery? I think calling it the Breed Standard is much more realistic. Standards should be attainable. Perfection? This is the terrain of poets and philosophers.

R: I also do not see how we "would be much further ahead" by going back ad destroying the foundation that has already been laid.

A: Please explain what “foundation” would be being destroyed by changing the standard to black breast. Are you referring to all the lace breasted males out there today?

R: There was a LOT of effort undertaken by those who got the breed accepted into the APA in the first place. To go back and try and reinvent the wheel at this point is not only going backwards but it also is doing a disservice to those who went thru the time, effort, and expense to get them accepted in the first place. And I do not think it is doing the breed any disservice whatsoever to keep the SOP as it is right now. Nor does it do the breed a greater service by changing to all black breasts in the males. That is simply a personal preference and one that was not accepted when the breed was.

A: You can’t really make a case that changing the standard to a black breast is the same as reinventing the wheel. It is more like choosing the color of the wheel.

R: I would venture to guess that two of the reasons, Andy, that you haven't seen males with lacing in their breasts is because #1 - there aren't that many folks breeding and showing Barnies and #2 - there are likely even fewer who have made any attempt at all to get lacing in the breasts of the males.

A: Yes and it would be only venturing a guess and not a fact. You asked Trisha to deal in facts, you please do the same. I think the reason is that they are not there. Its hard to prove the absence of something and back it up with facts so this is only my guess.

R: I certainly respect you as a breeder and you're doing a fine job with your birds. A very fine job. But if you don't plan to show then why worry at all about what the SOP says? Just breed your birds to whatever you want them to be. Trisha, same thing. If it turns out that double mating is required for nicely laced males and females, then so be it. If you don't want to double mate, then just keep breeding and showing the females. No problem. The SOP for Barnies has been established for 22 years. And now there's talk about changing it because it's easier to breed males without the lacing? If we start down that road, why not let every green legged bird with a beard and muffs be called an Ameraucana?

A: Thank you for the compliment and I certainly respect you as a breeder. But again Royce no one has used the rationale that it is easier to breed without lacing as the justification for changing the standard to a black breast. Lets try and stick with facts.
For all we know (no facts on either side of this one available) it may be easier to breed lace breasted males, this remains to be seen. It depends on the gene pool you are breeding from.
One correction, I actually do show my Barnies and I reserve the right to do so. I also sell a lot of eggs and birds to others and have an interest in the conservation and preservation of the breed, beyond APA shows. But, are you suggesting that the Standard is only for showing? It seems like it from your comments. That anyone who is showing birds has a say in the standard but not the breeder who does not show. That hardly seems right to me.

Finally, I think your analogy of the Ameraucana is way out of context and has no bearing whatsoever on the Barnevelder breed standard.

I look forward to hearing back from you as I know I will, and I hope I have not offended you or shown anything but respect and my love of a lively discussion.

Andy

 

[mountainvieworchards]

Sorry about how hard the the last post is to read but I had it all formatted right in the reply and it took out all my line breaks.

Andy

 

[mountainvieworchards]

It was helpful to have your comments on the proposed change in the Barnevelder standard that asked to include the black breasted male. I am sure you are busy with all the breeds and issues of such a large organization. But your comments left me with more questions and perhaps some other readers of this thread who are active in the Barnevelder breed have the same questions.

1. You said the “APA description does not agree with the Standard description of the country of origin.....but that is not unusual. The Barnie description in the APA does agrees with the Australian, German and British Standards. .I don't think those Standards were in error either.”

My question is if they don't agree and none are in error which one is correct ? This seems contradictory And why did APA choose to agree with standards from Australia, Germany and Britain?

What do the clubs in those countries know that the originators of the Barnevelder, the Dutch, missed? Is this merely a coincidence or is there more to it?

You said that “There are many breeds that don't agree with the country of origin's descriptions. I'm not sure why, but that is the way it is...it is not a mistake. Someone might think it is...but it isn't.”

My question is that if you are “not sure why”, who if anyone does? And could it be that it is indeed a mistake, and perhaps an arbitrary mistake?

I think it is good that your Committee will not act on hearsay or speculation and that one would have to have lots of documentation that can be verified.” My question is: What documentation would be needed to make such a change in the case of the Barnevelder male breast color?

You said it is normal that a “qualifying meet was held and there had to be fifty (50) good specimens in C,H,K,P classes, divided into equal classes, so obviously there were cock birds judged in the qualifying meet. If the chest color was not correct the breed would not have been admitted.....it's not a mistake. The breed has to breed true to be accepted.”

Do you know if this documentation is available? Were there written minutes or results of the meetings in forming the standard? I think being fact based is good. Short of facts we resort to hearsay and opinion.

Our BYC thread as Trisha stated is the closest thing to a Barnevelder breed club in USA. This group is getting more active and growing and perhaps will solidify into a club one day. The popularity of the breed is growing and it would be useful for us to have some of the history of the breed in this country, If APA does have any of it, is there a way we can access it.?


Thank you

Andy

 

[mountainvieworchards]

My last set of Questions was for Walt from APA, I am sorry I neglected to put that in the message.

Andy

 

[fowlman01]

It was helpful to have your comments on the proposed change in the Barnevelder standard that asked to include the black breasted male. I am sure you are busy with all the breeds and issues of such a large organization. But your comments left me with more questions and perhaps some other readers of this thread who are active in the Barnevelder breed have the same questions.

1. You said the “APA description does not agree with the Standard description of the country of origin.....but that is not unusual. The Barnie description in the APA does agrees with the Australian, German and British Standards. .I don't think those Standards were in error either.”

My question is if they don't agree and none are in error which one is correct ? This seems contradictory And why did APA choose to agree with standards from Australia, Germany and Britain?

What do the clubs in those countries know that the originators of the Barnevelder, the Dutch, missed? Is this merely a coincidence or is there more to it?

You said that “There are many breeds that don't agree with the country of origin's descriptions. I'm not sure why, but that is the way it is...it is not a mistake. Someone might think it is...but it isn't.”

My question is that if you are “not sure why”, who if anyone does? And could it be that it is indeed a mistake, and perhaps an arbitrary mistake?

I think it is good that your Committee will not act on hearsay or speculation and that one would have to have lots of documentation that can be verified.” My question is: What documentation would be needed to make such a change in the case of the Barnevelder male breast color?

You said it is normal that a “qualifying meet was held and there had to be fifty (50) good specimens in C,H,K,P classes, divided into equal classes, so obviously there were cock birds judged in the qualifying meet. If the chest color was not correct the breed would not have been admitted.....it's not a mistake. The breed has to breed true to be accepted.”

Do you know if this documentation is available? Were there written minutes or results of the meetings in forming the standard? I think being fact based is good. Short of facts we resort to hearsay and opinion.

Our BYC thread as Trisha stated is the closest thing to a Barnevelder breed club in USA. This group is getting more active and growing and perhaps will solidify into a club one day. The popularity of the breed is growing and it would be useful for us to have some of the history of the breed in this country, If APA does have any of it, is there a way we can access it.?


Thank you

Andy

The records for this qualifying meet would be with Pat Horstman APA Sec.

Some of the early breeds with different descriptions than those of the country of origin.......like the Orps etc were done way before my time and there has been no move to have them changed, so I don't know why they are different. Just stating that it is not unusual. The Marans is different because the stock here in the US is different than those in France and the Marans Club provided the description with reasons why it would be different. This is not unusual in any countries Standards.

To keep this short as I don't have a lot of time. Send all the compelling reasons to change the APA SOP to me and your local APA District Director (they vote on this, not the SOP Committee). I can tell you from many years experience on the committee that the Board will not vote for a change just because the Dutch have a different male description. The District 8 Director John Monaco is on the Standard Committee.

Keep in mind that I am not the one who has to prove anything. The folks requesting change have to prove their point. So far that has not been accomplished. If I thought it was incorrect I would spend the time.......but I don't think it is incorrect and neither does anyone else except the Dutch.

BTW: Did the Dutch ever call for lacing in the chest of the male?

Walt