Barnevelder breeders lets work together and improve the breed

[fowlman01]

I have been following this discussion with interest since I have a few young Barnvelders and I would like to make sure they are good specimens of the breed.

I thought I would hop in with my observation on the Silkies, since I have read their SOP and discussions about showing - and the winners at shows are not following the SOP's descriptions - but are instead breeding to the extreme. The SOP calls for a MEDIUM crest - not the huge bonnets we see winning at shows. Its the over exaggeration of traits that make Silkies useless for anything - and that was not the intention of the SOP. They were originally created to brood and raise chicks (pheasant). They still have that use. They can play in the rain - and scratch for food. However, this does break the foot feathers and that gets points taken off at shows. But the same goes for any heavily feather footed breeds. Ornamental does not have to mean useless, but that appears how some are interpreting the SOP. Any bird who has been so over-bred as to need help procreating or seeing where their food is to stay alive - I think that is where the problem lies. Not with the SOP - but with the people who breed them to the extreme. Perhaps those people never read the first 40 pages of the SOP either...

Another point - these birds are winning despite what the SOP says. The interpretation of the SOP and the personal preferences of the breeders that show play a huge part in what we see shown and who wins. I think this can be applied here too. Breed to your personal preference within the guidelines of the SOP. If enough people do this - the winning birds will match what you have - as long as you have everything else correct a small difference of the width of the lacing in the chest means nothing. If the hackles will show shafting with the incorrect lacing width - then the lacing width will have to be wide enough to compensate for that. I don't think Trisha's birds are actually black chested - or Happy Chooks' birds would be too. They are laced - but very thick laced and that appears to meet the American SOP, with interpretation.

I keep seeing Tailfeathers saying that Trisha wants to change the SOP to match her birds. I don't think she does. She keeps saying she doesn't. I don't know why he keeps saying she does... The only thing I have seen her ask is that it be clarified on the thickness of the lacing - and "to appear almost black from a distance" is is what I have seen both Trisha's and Tailfeathers' birds described as already by them.

Well we can't get off topic with Silkies, but I will respond. I raise black Silkies....they aren't good for anything....they are ornamental birds. Most bantams are not good for anything. Sorry! In the poultry world there is something called "judging practices". What that means is that some judges deviate from the Standard to pick birds because of personal reasons. This is not correct and you can file a protest if you feel strongly about it. Judges are human beings with human being failings.

I am not on the APA Judges licensing committee, but I am on the ABA lic committee. We just recently made it mandatory for ABA judges to continue their education of breeds with periodic testing. I don't know if this will solve the problem of human influence, but it is a step in the right direction. You are in the Gold Country, so you probably know Jim Sallee. He is on the APA judges Committee so you might want to discuss this with him. He was also a long time Silkie breeder. He lives in Lone Pine.

I am only in this thread because Trisha PM'd me after she ran across me in the CSU thread and said that there was a "mistake" in the current APA Standard for Barnies. I can't cut and paste her messages to post here because of BYC rules, but she does/did want to change the Standard. She also said that Dr Netland said the "translation" was incorrect. I didn't just show up here to shake the cage. She invited me.

Most of the conflict here IMO is novices misunderstanding posts.

Walt

 

[fowlman01]

Thank you. And you're right. We can't always trust the ethics of other people. However, reputation and word of mouth goes a long way in the chicken world. Buyers now have the opportunity to buy from a breeder on the other side of the country. I've seen people refuse to buy from a breeder because of a RUMOR that their lines have an issue. Ultimately, it comes down to a breeder's bottom line. Sales pay the feed bill, not ribbons. Yes, some people will still breed and buy just based upon what wins ribbons. But, if I can develop a line that wins ribbons, has a great temperament, and lays dark eggs, then I will develop a better reputation as a breeder and my birds will ultimately be more valuable.

The bold is true. When you join the APA you get a yearbook. In that yearbook you can track a persons success's...or lack of. The don't record firsts, so winning a ribbon doesn't mean anything. Winning class champion does however and though it still does not show the whole picture, it gives some indication of a persons overall quality. Word of mouth in the show scene is instant. You are not going to find good breeders online as a rule. They just don't participate in this.

Walt

 

[faykokoWV]

Quote: well, that's just a shame. It would be nice to see the top breeders of every breed participating in teaching others about the breed they raise and breeding in general. I know any discussion on that topic would be off topic for Barnevelders, but seems sad that someone might be an accomplished breeder and not want to share their knowledge.

 

[bonnylass79]

You are not going to find good breeders online as a rule. They just don't participate in this.

Walt

I don't know if that is necessarily true. I realize a lot of the old timers aren't on here, but I've met a number of quality breeders on this thread as well as other breed threads. I've also seen some of those same breeders at local shows and swaps. Granted, some of the biggest breeders aren't on here as often as some of us novices, but they don't need to come here as often looking for advice and guidance. And yes, I do know of a number of breeders who aren't online at all and it has taken more research on my part to find their information so I can hopefully obtain some of their birds in the future.

I wouldn't have Barnevelders now if it wasn't for BYC. We no longer have a national club and I found that finding breeder information was next to impossible. I couldn't find a single breeder in the state of Florida. No one had them at shows I visited. I found one other breeder near me who is interested in them, but when she bought eggs off Ebay, they turned out to be Barnevelder crosses at best. It was through this thread that I was able to meet breeders, look at pictures of breeding stock, and make decisions about where to obtain my birds.

And I'm very thankful for this most recent discussion, as it has taught me a lot about genetics, the Standard, and ways to improve my birds.

 

[tls_ranch]

I have been following this discussion with interest since I have a few young Barnvelders and I would like to make sure they are good specimens of the breed.

I thought I would hop in with my observation on the Silkies, since I have read their SOP and discussions about showing - and the winners at shows are not following the SOP's descriptions - but are instead breeding to the extreme.  The SOP calls for a MEDIUM crest - not the huge bonnets we see winning at shows.  Its the over exaggeration of traits that make Silkies useless for anything - and that was not the intention of the SOP.  They were originally created to brood and raise chicks (pheasant).   They still have that use.  They can play in the rain - and scratch for food.  However, this does break the foot feathers and that gets points taken off at shows.  But the same goes for any heavily feather footed breeds.  Ornamental does not have to mean useless, but that appears how some are interpreting the SOP.  Any bird who has been so over-bred as to need help procreating or seeing where their food is to stay alive - I think that is where the problem lies.  Not with the SOP - but with the people who breed them to the extreme.  Perhaps those people never read the first 40 pages of the SOP either...

Another point - these birds are winning despite what the SOP says.  The interpretation of the SOP and the personal preferences of the breeders that show play a huge part in what we see shown and who wins.  I think this can be applied here too.  Breed to your personal preference within the guidelines of the SOP.  If enough people do this - the winning birds will match what you have - as long as you have everything else correct a small difference of the width of the lacing in the chest means nothing.  If the hackles will show shafting with the incorrect lacing width - then the lacing width will have to be wide enough to compensate for that.  I don't think Trisha's birds are actually black chested - or Happy Chooks' birds would be too.  They are laced - but very thick laced and that appears to meet the American SOP, with interpretation.

I keep seeing Tailfeathers saying that Trisha wants to change the SOP to match her birds.  I don't think she does.  She keeps saying she doesn't.  I don't know why he keeps saying she does... The only thing I have seen her ask is that it be clarified on the thickness of the lacing - and "to appear almost black from a distance" is is what I have seen both Trisha's and Tailfeathers'  birds described as already by them.

Well we can't get off topic with Silkies, but I will respond. I raise black Silkies....they aren't good for anything....they are ornamental birds. Most bantams are not good for anything. Sorry! In the poultry world there is something called "judging practices". What that means is that some judges deviate from the Standard to pick birds because of personal reasons. This is not correct and you can file a protest if you feel strongly about it. Judges are human beings with human being failings.

I am not on the APA Judges licensing committee, but I am on the ABA lic committee. We just recently made it mandatory for ABA judges to continue their education of breeds with periodic testing. I don't know if this will solve the problem of human influence, but it is a step in the right direction. You are in the Gold Country, so you probably know Jim Sallee. He is on the APA judges Committee so you might want to discuss this with him. He was also a long time Silkie breeder. He lives in Lone Pine.

I am only in this thread because Trisha PM'd me after she ran across me in the CSU thread and said that there was a "mistake" in the current APA Standard for Barnies. I can't cut and paste her messages to post here because of BYC rules, but she does/did want to change the Standard. She also said that Dr Netland said the "translation" was incorrect. I didn't just show up here to shake the cage. She invited me.

Most of the conflict here IMO is novices misunderstanding posts.

Walt

 

Walt re- read my message to you.

"Hi Walt, I have been watching the discussions on the "CSU" thread about the possibility of the committee making changes to certain breeds. I am not any where near an master breeder of barnevelders, but I have been learning about some issues with the APA standard of barnevelders.

Dr Bjorn Netland was one of the primary breeders that helped get barnevelders accepted. He has been discussing some of the problems with the way the Barnevelder standard had been written. First the Barnevelder is listed as a partridge and not double laced although double lacing is mentioned in detail.

Second problem is the current APA standard calls for males with double lacing on the breast. Dr Netland says that this was mainly caused by miscommunication because of language. One of the other original breeders was German and there was some confusion in translating from German to English.

The Barnevelder male should have preferably have near solid black breast with at most a hint of lacing showing. Dr Netland says that all the males at the original qualifying meet had solid black breasts and this is the standard of Dutch breeders too.

I can forward some of his emails if you are interested. I really have no idea if the Barnevelder standard can be edited to " fix" these issues, but he said that some of us should try to get the standard fixed if possible.

Sincerely,

Trisha Strahan"


This is the post from Bjorn I was referring too:

https://www.backyardchickens.com/t/...ther-and-improve-the-breed/2850#post_10215168


Now, this is no reason to start attacking me. I am not demanding change. I am discussing it. The SOP has been changed for other breeds for many reasons.

 

[fowlman01]

well, that's just a shame. It would be nice to see the top breeders of every breed participating in teaching others about the breed they raise and breeding in general. I know any discussion on that topic would be off topic for Barnevelders, but seems sad that someone might be an accomplished breeder and not want to share their knowledge.

It's not that they don't want to share their knowledge, it is more that they don't want to go through what I have gone through the last week. Why should anyone come online and have novices tell them they are wrong. Not saying that is the case in this thread, but I have been on this site and facebook enough to know that only someone with my patience can stand up to these people. Really.......why should any accomplish breeder have to explain everything 10 times to newbies. They don't mind explaining breeding principles one or two times but the first time they get in one of these encounters, they are gone and they don't come back. At first I was taken aback by getting the same question numerous times.....now I know it is because I am not giving them the answer the want to hear.

The older breeders....breeders my age, don't even have computers. The absolute best way to learn chickens is to go to a show and seek out the oldest people you can find that are not senile yet and pick their brain. They love to talk chickens.....with anyone. The only reason I stay in this purgatory called the internet is to try to give back to the fancy because people were generous with their time when I was learning. You don't have to show a bird, but just go to learn. That's where you will find the real breeders, not just people that call themselves breeders and have an online following based on self promotion. These people can actually breed! And they won't use language you can't understand.

The above is not directed at anyone here and is not meant to offend......

Try the CSU and Heritage threads here on BYC. There are a few real breeders that give advice on those two threads.

Walt

 

[tls_ranch]

From Bjorn in that post.

"I am pretty sure Horst submitted a translation of the GERMAN standard, which differs from the Dutch/British one, albeit almost all the male birds shown had black breasts (though I know that a couple of them had VERY broad lacing so that the brown did not show, because I was allowed to handle some of Horst's birds). Again, as is the case with the Welsummers, we have ended up with a confused state, which is most unfortunate."


And

"You're absolutely correct, Royce, this is what our APA standard specifies. I was aware of this early on and discussed it with Horst, but he dismissed the issue as inconsequential because the lacing was so wide, he claimed, that the breast of the male would APPEAR all black. I never did pursue it further at the time because I gave up on the breed shortly afterwards, but then I checked with the Dutch and was told that the black breast in the male was what was desired."


If this doesn't at least make someone speak up to start a discussion... No, I wasn't there 20 yeas ago. I was just passing info on and hoping to let others speak up. But, instead all I got was the APA SOP is never wrong and I am just trying to change the standard to fit my birds. But the APA does change the SOP and clarified many times over no matter how old the breed is or how long it has been accepted. No offense to the APA or SOP or all the respected Judges. I didn't submit a official request for change. Nothing has been written, just tossing ideas out there.



Trisha

 

[fowlman01]

Walt re- read my message to you.

"Hi Walt, I have been watching the discussions on the "CSU" thread about the possibility of the committee making changes to certain breeds. I am not any where near an master breeder of barnevelders, but I have been learning about some issues with the APA standard of barnevelders.

Dr Bjorn Netland was one of the primary breeders that helped get barnevelders accepted. He has been discussing some of the problems with the way the Barnevelder standard had been written. First the Barnevelder is listed as a partridge and not double laced although double lacing is mentioned in detail.

Second problem is the current APA standard calls for males with double lacing on the breast. Dr Netland says that this was mainly caused by miscommunication because of language. One of the other original breeders was German and there was some confusion in translating from German to English.

The Barnevelder male should have preferably have near solid black breast with at most a hint of lacing showing. Dr Netland says that all the males at the original qualifying meet had solid black breasts and this is the standard of Dutch breeders too.

I can forward some of his emails if you are interested. I really have no idea if the Barnevelder standard can be edited to " fix" these issues, but he said that some of us should try to get the standard fixed if possible.

Sincerely,

Trisha Strahan"


This is the post from Bjorn I was referring too:

https://www.backyardchickens.com/t/...ther-and-improve-the-breed/2850#post_10215168


Now, this is no reason to start attacking me. I am not demanding change. I am discussing it. The SOP has been changed for other breeds for many reasons.

Trish..I did reread it before that post. Thanks for posting it for us. I also have never said that you demanded it. You are trying to put words in my mouth again. Fix and change means the same thing to me......dunno why, but it does.

I am a retired university administrator and most people thought I had pretty good reading comprehension...little did they know.

Well great....there is no need to continue the discussion on the errors in the Standard if you don't want to change it. That makes it easy for me....and really as I said yesterday I am done with this discussion until Dr Netland returns and wants to talk. People are getting their feelings hurt and who knows what else...it is a no win discussion. That's it for me Trisha.

I will be happy to talk Barnies or even give judging opinions of Barnie pictures, but I'm off the other merry go round.

Walt

 

[tls_ranch]

Walt re- read my message to you.


"Hi Walt, I have been watching the discussions on the "CSU" thread about the possibility of the committee making changes to certain breeds. I am not any where near an master breeder of barnevelders, but I have been learning about some issues with the APA standard of barnevelders.


Dr Bjorn Netland was one of the primary breeders that helped get barnevelders accepted. He has been discussing some of the problems with the way the Barnevelder standard had been written. First the Barnevelder is listed as a partridge and not double laced although double lacing is mentioned in detail.

Second problem is the current APA standard calls for males with double lacing on the breast. Dr Netland says that this was mainly caused by miscommunication because of language. One of the other original breeders was German and there was some confusion in translating from German to English.

The Barnevelder male should have preferably have near solid black breast with at most a hint of lacing showing. Dr Netland says that all the males at the original qualifying meet had solid black breasts and this is the standard of Dutch breeders too.


I can forward some of his emails if you are interested. I really have no idea if the Barnevelder standard can be edited to " fix" these issues, but he said [COLOR=FF0000]that some of us should try to get the standard fixed if possible.


Sincerely,[/COLOR]


Trisha Strahan"



This is the post from Bjorn I was referring too:

https://www.backyardchickens.com/t/...ther-and-improve-the-breed/2850#post_10215168



Now, this is no reason to start attacking me. I am not demanding change. I am discussing it. The SOP has been changed for other breeds for many reasons.

Trish..I did reread it before that post. Thanks for posting it for us. I also have never said that you demanded it. You are trying to put words in my mouth again. Fix and change means the same thing to me......dunno why, but it does.

I am a retired university administrator and most people thought I had pretty good reading comprehension...little did they know.

Well great....there is no need to continue the discussion on the errors in the Standard if you don't want to change it. That makes it easy for me....and really as I said yesterday I am done with this discussion until Dr Netland returns and wants to talk. People are getting their feelings hurt and who knows what else...it is a no win discussion. That's it for me Trisha.

I will be happy to talk Barnies or even give judging opinions of Barnie pictures, but I'm off the other merry go round.

Walt

Yes, i said that .....all based off of the advice of a respected breeder...one the original 5....that did all that hard work to get Barnevelders in the APA.


Now, I am going to leave this forum. Obviously there are several people who have made it their mission to attack me rather than discuss barnevelders. So, I am going fishing, maybe do some camping. Plan some neat family vacations. Watch my young stock grow out. Swim in the pool.

I will not post here until the fall. I will let all of you decide what to do with breeding your own barnevelders.I am done with this he said she said stuff.

Trisha

 

[fowlman01]

Anyone in California that would like to pick my brain at a Calif or NV show...I go to all of them. Contact me by PM a month before the show and I will meet and talk birds with you. Anyone close to Santa Rosa CA that wants to come here an talk birds is always welcome. We just don't go out to where my birds are. This is based on contacting me well ahead of time.

I have a General license in both the ABA and APA (which means I am qualified to judge chickens, waterfowl, Turkeys and other game birds in both bantam and large fowl). I am also qualified to give judging tests in both the ABA/APA.

I will speak to you in words you can understand.

Walt