Barnevelder breeders lets work together and improve the breed

[tls_ranch]

Quote:
I'm not an expert and maybe someone can add to this, but here is what I've been reading about the "off color" and pattern issue.

Welsummer chicks have wild type chick down: e+ (Wild type) – dorsal stripes & eye stripe- day old chicks, adult male Black Breasted Red, adult hen salmon-breasted.

Barnevelder chicks have eb or (brown) chick down : brownish day-old chicks, adult male Black Breasted Red, adult hens brown breasted – stippling or adding the secondary pattern genes PgPg MlMl the adult pattern is double laced.

The chicks with the "V" ....."mixes, sports, or throwbacks" (what ever they might be) most likely do not have the right primary pattern genotype on the e locus alleles. The "V" chicks are e+ or carry e+ and are not eb (the brown they should be). They might also lack the special color mutations such as enhancers/modifiers needed to complete the true, clean double-laced pattern that is the color standard for Barnevelders amd exhibition quality birds.

This is based on straight color genetics and not speculation on if the chicks were crossed with welsummer at sometime in the past. I think the main problem is that roosters may look ALMOST right, but not be correctly colored with the color fault hidden. It is much easier to see the issue with the female double-laced pattern. In a generation or two, a person ends up with a flock of Barnevelders with poor lacing, light feather shafting, roosters with too much red in the hackles and salmon colored breasts in the hens. The answer to this color issue is to cull, cull, cull and only select the BEST for breeding. Meanwhile read the breed standard, breed for type, egg color and everything else you desire in a good chicken.

 

[Rockportcrpntr]

I went looking for the welsumer contribution to barnevelder genetics and found the reverse, there's barnevelder genetics in the welsumer breed

 

[tls_ranch]

Quote:
Barnevelders were standardized in 1921. Welsummers were standardized in 1930 and were developed from Rhode Island Reds, Barnevelders, Partridge Leghorns, Cochins, and Wyandottes.

Of course, in the last 80+ years who knows if or when breeders outcrossed to to "improve" their lines.

 

[Tailfeathers]

Quote:
Oops! My apologies. After getting your reply in my Inbox, I had to go back and try to find where I got that from. I should've looked at my notes first. It's the other way around. Barnies were actually used by some to create the Welsummers.

Many of the same breeds were used in both and Barnies were actually established about 1920 with the Welsummers being created around the same time but actually established in 1928 if I remember right now.

Of course even this varied from region to region and all happened overseas. From what I gathered, there are some Wellies that had Barnie in them and some that did not. And I do know that there are some in the USA that have tried to cross the Wellie back into the Barnie in an attempt to get darker eggs.

Nonetheless, I'm sorry for the mistake. Now you know why I should never try to rely on my memory!

God Bless,

 

[Tailfeathers]

Oh goodness, guess I should've looked at the most recent page before making my last reply!

And Trisha, you're not an expert?????????? You lost me right after "Welsummer chicks have wild type chick down:". e+ what????? PgPg MlMl, huh?????

God Bless,

 

[pinkchick]

Quote:
I'm not an expert and maybe someone can add to this, but here is what I've been reading about the "off color" and pattern issue.

Welsummer chicks have wild type chick down: e+ (Wild type) – dorsal stripes & eye stripe- day old chicks, adult male Black Breasted Red, adult hen salmon-breasted.

Barnevelder chicks have eb or (brown) chick down : brownish day-old chicks, adult male Black Breasted Red, adult hens brown breasted – stippling or adding the secondary pattern genes PgPg MlMl the adult pattern is double laced.

The chicks with the "V" ....."mixes, sports, or throwbacks" (what ever they might be) most likely do not have the right primary pattern genotype on the e locus alleles. The "V" chicks are e+ or carry e+ and are not eb (the brown they should be). They might also lack the special color mutations such as enhancers/modifiers needed to complete the true, clean double-laced pattern that is the color standard for Barnevelders amd exhibition quality birds.

This is based on straight color genetics and not speculation on if the chicks were crossed with welsummer at sometime in the past. I think the main problem is that roosters may look ALMOST right, but not be correctly colored with the color fault hidden. It is much easier to see the issue with the female double-laced pattern. In a generation or two, a person ends up with a flock of Barnevelders with poor lacing, light feather shafting, roosters with too much red in the hackles and salmon colored breasts in the hens. The answer to this color issue is to cull, cull, cull and only select the BEST for breeding. Meanwhile read the breed standard, breed for type, egg color and everything else you desire in a good chicken.

Nothing to add to that Trisha....you covered it all and covered it very well. I have noticed everything that you have mentioned above on the females that have Welsummer in them, shafting, poor lacing and salmon colored breast as seen in some photos that I posted not too long ago of some Welsummer influenced "Barnevelder" pullets.
I don't have any photos of the males, as I did not grow any of them out, but my best friend did, so I will ask her if she has any photos of them, I know she does. There is quite a difference in these males in body type as well and is where I see the biggest indication of a mix. The colors of these males where not bad when they matured but when they were growing out they did resemble that of a Welsummer cockerel until about 2-2.5 months, then the Barnevelder darkness started to show through and they changed over to the dark coloring of a Barnevelder. These males did not have the same body type, they actually resemble more of a Welsummer or a Leghorn, they didn't get that big deep stocky lower riding build of the Barnevelder. Matter of fact, I would go so far as to say that even the photo of the Barnevelder cockerel in Storey's Illustrated Guide to Poultry Breeds is even a cross or Welsummer influenced, the female photo'd looks more like she is pure Barnevelder, the 2 photos show the difference very well, IMO, the female has that Barnie type, nice deep chest, short legs, that slight forward tilt in the body. The male is too upright and erect for a Barnie male, lacking that depth. He is also built very boxy like a Welsummer and the tail area is wrong....it should be big and broad across the saddle area, and I won't buy that it is the position he is standing in either.

I have also noticed the females (females that are a mix of both Welsummer and Barnevelder) tend to be more on the Barnevelder body type side, but still not quite the same type as a true Barnevelder.
Need I even talk about egg color? If someone was trying increase egg color in the birds that I got........it did not work. The 4 females that I have that are what I believe to be crossed with a Welsummer lay an egg like an Australorp, nice creamy off white almost pink. I will say that they are little go getters in egg production, best layers I have in the laying flock.
All I can say is... that out of 4 different batches of eggs from 4 different breeders that I had shipped in last year, all of the chicks that hatched from 3 of the different breeders eggs -WITH THE EXCEPTION OF FARMER JOHAN'S- are crossed and all hatched with "V's" and "eye-liner" even the roos, the tale tell sexing traits of the Welsummer (the "V" and the "eye-liner" do not work on a crossed or mixed bird. I might add that the "eye-liner" was different than that of a Welsummer and instead of one thick line of liner lining the eye, these chicks had one line that split into 2 and forked and continued on toward the back of the head.

I don't know if this will mean anything to any one here, but I am going to toss it out there..........Farmer Johan (for those who do not know....he does like to be called Farmer Johan, he insists) told me that true Barnevelders will never have "V's" or "eye-liner" and if they do Welsummer blood has been mixed in somewhere. He stated that as long as he has been breeding Barnevelders that he has never had a chick hatch with the V or eyeliner....all of his chicks hatch with the dark head (eb ~ brown headed and brown downed chicks with dorsal stripes)....not the e+ (wild type) with the "V", "eye-liner" and dorsal stripes such as the Wellie.

Edited to add: Welsummers were created from Barnevelders and refined to what we see as a Welsummer today....I have never seen a Barnevelder influenced chick or bird come from the breeding of Welsummers...if the Wellies were made from Barnevelders why don't we see recessive Barnie looking chicks or influences pop out of Welsummer breedings? I would buy that before I bought that a Welsummer trait accidentally popped up in a Barnevelder. And if we did see Barnie traits in Welsummers.....would they grow up to look just like Welsummers? I'm thinking....Barnies do not have the "V" and "eye-liner" characteristics in their background as they are not based on the e+ wild type, so when it shows, (it= V's, eyeliner, salmon breast with shafting on the females) IMO, it is indicitive of Welsummer.

Just my 2 cents.

 

[Cowgirlgrace]

tls ranch,

Thanks you so much for the 'genetic' explanation I was looking for. Now it makes sense to me.

 

[Happy Chooks]

Quote:
I'm not an expert and maybe someone can add to this, but here is what I've been reading about the "off color" and pattern issue.

Welsummer chicks have wild type chick down: e+ (Wild type) – dorsal stripes & eye stripe- day old chicks, adult male Black Breasted Red, adult hen salmon-breasted.

Barnevelder chicks have eb or (brown) chick down : brownish day-old chicks, adult male Black Breasted Red, adult hens brown breasted – stippling or adding the secondary pattern genes PgPg MlMl the adult pattern is double laced.

The chicks with the "V" ....."mixes, sports, or throwbacks" (what ever they might be) most likely do not have the right primary pattern genotype on the e locus alleles. The "V" chicks are e+ or carry e+ and are not eb (the brown they should be). They might also lack the special color mutations such as enhancers/modifiers needed to complete the true, clean double-laced pattern that is the color standard for Barnevelders amd exhibition quality birds.

This is based on straight color genetics and not speculation on if the chicks were crossed with welsummer at sometime in the past. I think the main problem is that roosters may look ALMOST right, but not be correctly colored with the color fault hidden. It is much easier to see the issue with the female double-laced pattern. In a generation or two, a person ends up with a flock of Barnevelders with poor lacing, light feather shafting, roosters with too much red in the hackles and salmon colored breasts in the hens. The answer to this color issue is to cull, cull, cull and only select the BEST for breeding. Meanwhile read the breed standard, breed for type, egg color and everything else you desire in a good chicken.

Nothing to add to that Trisha....you covered it all and covered it very well. I have noticed everything that you have mentioned above on the females that have Welsummer in them, shafting, poor lacing and salmon colored breast as seen in some photos that I posted not too long ago of some Welsummer influenced "Barnevelder" pullets.
I don't have any photos of the males, as I did not grow any of them out, but my best friend did, so I will ask her if she has any photos of them, I know she does. There is quite a difference in these males in body type as well and is where I see the biggest indication of a mix. The colors of these males where not bad when they matured but when they were growing out they did resemble that of a Welsummer cockerel until about 2-2.5 months, then the Barnevelder darkness started to show through and they changed over to the dark coloring of a Barnevelder. These males did not have the same body type, they actually resemble more of a Welsummer or a Leghorn, they didn't get that big deep stocky lower riding build of the Barnevelder. Matter of fact, I would go so far as to say that even the photo of the Barnevelder cockerel in Storey's Illustrated Guide to Poultry Breeds is even a cross or Welsummer influenced, the female photo'd looks more like she is pure Barnevelder, the 2 photos show the difference very well, IMO, the female has that Barnie type, nice deep chest, short legs, that slight forward tilt in the body. The male is too upright and erect for a Barnie male, lacking that depth. He is also built very boxy like a Welsummer and the tail area is wrong....it should be big and broad across the saddle area, and I won't buy that it is the position he is standing in either.

I have also noticed the females (females that are a mix of both Welsummer and Barnevelder) tend to be more on the Barnevelder body type side, but still not quite the same type as a true Barnevelder.
Need I even talk about egg color? If someone was trying increase egg color in the birds that I got........it did not work. The 4 females that I have that are what I believe to be crossed with a Welsummer lay an egg like an Australorp, nice creamy off white almost pink. I will say that they are little go getters in egg production, best layers I have in the laying flock.
All I can say is... that out of 4 different batches of eggs from 4 different breeders that I had shipped in last year, all of the chicks that hatched from 3 of the different breeders eggs -WITH THE EXCEPTION OF FARMER JOHAN'S- are crossed and all hatched with "V's" and "eye-liner" even the roos, the tale tell sexing traits of the Welsummer (the "V" and the "eye-liner" do not work on a crossed or mixed bird. I might add that the "eye-liner" was different than that of a Welsummer and instead of one thick line of liner lining the eye, these chicks had one line that split into 2 and forked and continued on toward the back of the head.

I don't know if this will mean anything to any one here, but I am going to toss it out there..........Farmer Johan (for those who do not know....he does like to be called Farmer Johan, he insists) told me that true Barnevelders will never have "V's" or "eye-liner" and if they do Welsummer blood has been mixed in somewhere. He stated that as long as he has been breeding Barnevelders that he has never had a chick hatch with the V or eyeliner....all of his chicks hatch with the dark head (eb ~ brown headed and brown downed chicks with dorsal stripes)....not the e+ (wild type) with the "V", "eye-liner" and dorsal stripes such as the Wellie.

Edited to add: Welsummers were created from Barnevelders and refined to what we see as a Welsummer today....I have never seen a Barnevelder influenced chick or bird come from the breeding of Welsummers...if the Wellies were made from Barnevelders why don't we see recessive Barnie looking chicks or influences pop out of Welsummer breedings? I would buy that before I bought that a Welsummer trait accidentally popped up in a Barnevelder. And if we did see Barnie traits in Welsummers.....would they grow up to look just like Welsummers? I'm thinking....Barnies do not have the "V" and "eye-liner" characteristics in their background as they are not based on the e+ wild type, so when it shows, (it= V's, eyeliner, salmon breast with shafting on the females) IMO, it is indicitive of Welsummer.

Just my 2 cents.

Great information from both of you, thanks!

 

[Omniskies]

Out of curiosity, does this mean that the recommendation is to cull chicks with the V markings, or to cull chicks with the V markings if they grow up to look wrong?

How should the chicks be culled out? Is this a severe enough problem that they should go to the slow cooker? Can they be sold as pet quality birds? For severe issues I won't chance that a bird sold as pet quality won't end up adding to the breeding lines eventually (the person sells their old layers and someone recognizes the breed and buys one for their own flock, the person isn't being terribly scrupulous and is just wanting to buy culls to turn around and sell as great birds, etc).

 

[tls_ranch]

Quote:
I wouldn't use a "V" marked chick for breeding. But, there is no reason to just kill chicks that would be future layers just because they are poorly marked. Selling them as pet quality layers or eating roos is a good way to go and just be very clear about what you are selling. If someone you honestly sold the "pet quality" birds to is unscrupulous and re-sells them dishonestly then it really isn't your problem...it's theirs.