Beginner flock questions

[SunnySkies]

We have roosters, we have little kids, they all get along very well....but we have had a couple bad experiences in there, despite my years of experience with chickens. A roo can suddenly become aggressive -- I apparently upset one of my most dependable boys the other night, and he charged before realizing it was me -- and that can really hurt a kid. I do not let the kids handle our chicks at all now, as handling chicks that are roosters can make them more prone to being aggressive, but how do you tell the rooster chick from the other? You can't. So don't go there just yet. Get pullet chicks the kids can handle, and if one is a rooster (it happens) plan now what you would do with him, whether that be rehome him or send him to freezer camp.

I love my roosters and won't be giving them up, but any mean ones here find their way to the stock pot.

Regarding rooster numbers, many people say you need 8-10 hens per rooster, but I don't have that many, and mine are doing just fine. I have multiple groups of hens that have formed their flocks from me raising them as a group, and each group has two roosters to help the ladies out. We free range though, so it works. But if you raise them in a run and you want 2 roosters if each breed, under general guidelines, that would be 18 hens per breed.

I think 6 hens would be a great place to start. The eggs accumulate quickly...I was giving away eggs earlier this year, like 5-6 dozen a week, and we eat a dozen at a sitting...and you will run out of ways to fix eggs, lol. You can always add more chicks later. Having hens of different ages means that some are always laying too. I have point of lay pullets due any day to start laying, hens that just started laying a couple months ago, chicks that will start laying in the spring, and hens molting right now, all because I started with a few, then added more chicks a few months later, and repeated.

But build your coop twice the size you think you will need..there is this thing called chicken math. Search that here and then RUN

 

[Ridgerunner]

You are headed in the right direction by defining why you want chickens, eggs mainly but also meat. Based on that, any dual purpose breed will work pretty well. That’s why the dual purpose breeds were developed, eggs and meat. We all have our favorites. You can find great roosters and hens from any breed. You can find roosters that attack people and are brutal to their hens from any breed. You can find hens from any breed that are brutal or great. I’d suggest that you not get too hung up on breed.

There is nothing wrong with going with just one breed. There is nothing wrong with mixing different breeds. There is nothing wrong with going with a barnyard mix where they are not any specific breed, commonly called mutts on this forum. You can meet your stated goals with any of those.

Why do you want a rooster? The only reason you need a rooster is if you want fertile eggs. Any other reason to have a rooster is just personal preference. My suggestion is to have as few roosters as you can and still meet your goals. It’s not that you are guaranteed problems with more roosters, just that you are less likely to have problems with fewer roosters.

I think Mrs. K got it right about people getting upset about their chickens when they outgrow their space. A flag goes up when I see a post asking “How many chickens can I shoehorn into this space?” Space is very important in chicken behavior.

But I think there is more to it than that. I think when the chicks hit puberty and start to act like chickens, some people can’t handle it. “My hens are being brutal to each other.” The pecking order is called the pecking order because a major way it is developed is that they peck each other to establish dominance. “My rooster is attacking and raping my hens!!!” No, he’s establishing dominance so he can do his job as flockmaster. Some people just should not have a rooster because they can’t handle how a rooster is supposed to behave. Chickens are going to behave like chickens. Don’t expect them to behave like well-mannered people.

A rooster is supposed to defend his flock. If someone, either a young kid or an adult, is chasing a hen, that’s a direct threat to his flock. If someone runs at him or tries to grab him, that’s a threat to the rooster’s flock dominance. He’s going to defend that position. You sometimes see posts on here where a good rooster was ruined by a kid out of control or just not knowing how to act. Once a rooster attacks a kid, I strongly suggest the crock pot, even if it is not the rooster’s fault. To me, people come before chickens.

How much space do you have and how do you plan to manage them? Those questions go together and need to be answered before you can talk too much about how many. I find the more I crowd chickens the more behavioral problems I’m likely to have, the harder I have to work, and the less flexibility I have to manage problems.

I don’t believe in magic numbers for how much space chickens need. We each have our own unique situations. We have different flock make-ups, each chicken has its own personality and each flock has its own unique dynamics, we have different climates, different management techniques, different goals, just so many differences one magic number can’t cover us all. I understand for someone just starting out you need some guidelines until you get experience. There is a rough rule of thumb on here that calls for 4 square feet per chicken in the coop along with 10 square feet per chicken in the run. That’s not a bad minimum starting place. It will keep most of us out of trouble most of the time in different parts of the world using different management techniques. That means it is more than a lot of us need for an absolute minimum, but for a few of us, it’s pushing it.

I did a pretty long write-up a few years back about some things I consider important to consider when looking at space. I’ll put it in a separate post. You sound like you might enjoy reading it.

How long before they can go outside? What’s your climate like? How are you brooding them? What do your outdoor facilities look like? My brooder is in the coop and pretty large. I generally only heat one area and let the rest cool off as it will. In the dead of winter I heat it a bit more, but still have some areas pretty cool. They play all over the brooder and spend a fair amount of time in the cooler areas, just coming back to the heat when they need to warm up. They feather out pretty quickly and get acclimated. I’ve had 5 week olds in an unheated grow-out coop with good draft protection with overnight lows in the mid 40’s. I’ve had 5-1/2 week olds in there when the overnight lows hit the mid 20’s. I would not recommend that to people in a coop that does not have good draft protection or that have not raised their chicks to be acclimated. Again, it’s a moving target different for different ones of us.

 

[Ridgerunner]

Alex, this is my old space write-up I mentioned above.


I don’t believe in magic numbers for chickens. We keep them in so many different conditions, in different climates, with different flock make-ups, and use so many different management techniques that no one magic number will cover us all. Some of the things that make up the space requirement are, in my opinion:

1. Personal space for the birds. They have different personalities and different individual requirements. Some are very possessive of personal space and some can share. Each flock has its own dynamics.

2. Access to feeder and waterer.

3. Being able to put the feeder and waterer where they will not poop in it when they roost.

4. Roost space. They not only need to have enough room to sleep on the roost, they need to have enough room for them to spread their wings and fly to the roost and to sort out who gets to sleep next to whom and who gets the prime spots once they get on the roost. When they get on, they may jump from some midway support or fly directly to the roost, but either way, they like to spread their wings. And some chickens seem to enjoy blocking the entry points if there are limits. And when they get off, mine tend to want to fly down, not jump to a halfway point. They need room to fly down without bumping into feeders, waterers, nesting boxes, or a wall.

5. Poop load. The larger area they have the less often you have to actively manage the poop. They poop a lot while on the roost so you may have to give that area special consideration, but mucking out the entire coop can be backbreaking work plus you have to have some place to put all that bedding and poop. In my opinion, totally cleaning out the coop is something that needs to happen as seldom as possible.

6. How often are they able to get out of the coop? The more they are confined to the coop, the larger the personal space needs to be. The normal recommendation on this forum is 4 square feet per full sized chicken with a minimum of 10 square feet of run per bird. This additional requirement outside is sometimes not mentioned. How often they are allowed out of the coop may depend on a lot more than just weather. Your work schedule, when you are able to turn them loose, what time of day you open the pop door to let them out or lock them up at night, all this and more enters into the equation. The 4 square feet recommendation assumes they will spend extended time in the coop and not be able to get in the run. What that extended time can safely be depends on a lot of different factor so there is no one correct length of time for everyone.

7. Do you feed and water in the coop or outside. The more they are outside, the less pressure on the size of the coop.

8. The size of the chicken. Bantams require less room than full sized chickens. This has to be tempered by breed and the individual personalities. Some bantams can be more protective of personal space than others, but this is also true of full sized breeds. Young chicks need less space than mature adults.

9. The breed of the chicken. Some handle confinement better than others.

10. The number of chickens. The greater the number of chickens, the more personal space they can have if the square foot per chicken stays constant. Let me explain. Assume each chicken occupies 1 square foot of space. If you have two chickens and 4 square feet per chicken, the two chickens occupy 2 square feet, which leaves 6 square feet for them to explore. If you have ten chickens with 4 square feet per chicken, each chicken has 30 unoccupied square feet to explore. A greater number also can give more space to position the feeders and waterers properly in relation to the roosts and provide access. In general the more chickens you have the less space per chicken you need. You are more likely to get in trouble with 4 square feet per chicken if you have very few chickens.

11. What is your flock make-up? A flock with more than one rooster may be more peaceful if it has more space. I don't want to start the argument about number or roosters here as I know more than one rooster can often peacefully coexist with a flock, but I firmly believe more space helps.

12. What is the maximum number of chickens you will have. Consider hatching chicks or bringing in replacements. Look down the road a bit.

13. Do you want a broody to raise chicks with the flock? A broody needs sufficient room to work with or you risk problems from other chickens.

14. The more space you have, the easier it is to integrate chickens. Chickens have developed a way to live together in a flock. It’s called the pecking order. But establishing that pecking order can be pretty violent. One method they use to take most of the danger out of establishing the pecking order is that the weaker runs away from the stronger when there is a confrontation or they just a void the stronger to start with. They need room to run away and avoid.

15. The more space you have the more flexibility you have dealing with problems.

I'm sure I am missing several components, but the point I'm trying to make is that we all have different conditions. There is no magic number that suits us all. The 4 square feet in a coop with 10 square feet in the run is a good rule of thumb that most of the time will keep us out of trouble, but not always. People starting out with no experience with chickens need a starting point. The 4 and 10 is a good starting point. For a lot of us it is more than they could possibly squeak by with but I do believe that more is better both in the coop and in the run.

There are also people that have no trouble with a lot less space. If the coop is used only for sleeping and maybe some nest boxes, you can get by with less. But there has to be additional space available when they are awake. If you commit to giving them that space whenever they are awake, you don’t sleep in any mornings and you have to find someone to let them out at the crack of dawn if you are away for a while.

It doesn’t matter if the space is in the coop, coop and run, or they free range and sleep in trees. It’s total space that counts, not just coop size in isolation.

 

[Going Quackers]

With your little guys, I'd say nix the roosters to start. At first, just go with hens and see how you actually like having chickens. Roosters add a whole new dimension to chicken keeping, and DO NOT mix well with children. Lots of threads here about roosters flogging little guys, and kids even ending up scarred. Roosters need to be treated as livestock, not pets, and should not be handled regularly or they lose respect for humans. Hens handle handling much better and are lots more docile, they make much better pets.

Of course, each bird will be an individual, but Orpingtons sound like a good way to go. All those breeds you mentioned should be nice backyard birds, and I'd go ahead and get a few of each breed to see which you like best. No reason to stay all with one breed, I'd say most of us on this board have mixed flocks.

The following year, if you're still good with the chickens, and your boys are good with them, at that point you could consider adding a rooster or two. Several of us here think a rooster raised by older hens is a better rooster, more respectful. Your idea of getting different breeds and roosters to go with them leads to different pens to separate different breeds for hatching, which is lots of work. Starting slowly is best. You can always add more chickens later, trust me!

I would agree, we didn't have roosters till after we'd had chickens for a bit. Even then ours are banties... yes, they can be buggers but i have coffee mugs bigger a larger roo breed could do some serious damage.

I keep drakes here(mostly large ones, as they are scovies, 1 call) and those require a certain way of handling. I do agree you can always add later, chicks are simple, adults are a whole new ballagame i think way to many start off to heavy and then become overwhelmed later.

I choose my lifestyle but there is nothing fun about lugging feed/water in 18F and blowing snow, the "fun" wears off real quick it's a tough job running livestock, many rewards but just as many disappointments and sadness, it's not something to jump into head first.

 

[lazy gardener]

Excellent advice given. The only words I have to add are: Check out Henderson's chicken breed chart. Then decide how many eggs you and your family will use each week. You'll have to figure out if you are willing to go without eggs in the winter, or plan on adding supplemental light to keep them laying. Decide if you want to keep your birds for 2 years or longer. Heritage breeds will give you eggs over a longer time frame compared to production breeds which bang out a lot of eggs over a 2 year time span, then, they're pretty much done. Lest I raise dissent, there are lots of exceptions re: heritage vs. production birds egg laying careers. What is your climate? Some birds do better in warm areas, some do better in cold areas. Make your coop larger than you think you'll need. Also plan your run to be as large as you can possibly make it. If you plan to allow the flock to free range, be prepared to give up your pretty mulched flower beds. They'll turn into moonscape deserts in quick order. Personally, I don't mind that. My girls are just so happy when they are churning my rose bed into a dust bowl! White birds are reportedly more predator prone. Lastly, choose birds that are reputed to be docile and bear confinement. I'd recommend that you get several breeds. I strongly advise against getting a rooster, but if you must have a rooster, only get one. The only reasons to have a rooster are for flock protection and fertile eggs. A flock will do fine without one.

Also, if you brood chicks in the house, be prepared for the smell, and the dust that they will kick up. They loose a lot of dander, and it flys all over the place. You might want to get them when the weather warms up a bit so they can get outdoors quicker.

 

[SweetSilver]

I'd vote to nix the roosters as well. 3 and 5yo was around the ages my girls were when we had our first flock, and even without a rooster, one hen became very upset when the girls would pick others up.

As far as the hatchery breeds go, in my experience, the Orpingtons have always been the best for picking up, but even they can quickly become averse to children. I found the Wyandottes and RIR to be calm but not enough to pick up, but I haven't had extensive experience. I have loved our EE's (marketed often as Ameraucanas from feed stores/hatcheries) and Welsummers. In fact, our current Wellie is the sweetest bird I've ever had, but that could just be the individual bird. Oddly, our current BO is shy and skittish, and she was well handled by our girls when they were much older.

In the end, I think it's fun to have more than one breed. You learn a little about them, they are easy to tell apart, and, best of all, you get lots of different colored eggs! I think 10 hens (no rooster) for a family of 4 is reasonable, if everyone is eating eggs. You'll have a surplus in the summer which you can sell or freeze for baking, and then you're more likely to have enough in the winter.

To add to the conversation about space, the quality of the space s important as well for flock dynamics. A space with places to hide, places to get up higher, all contribute to birds that are less bored. Bottom chickens have a place to get out of sight, even if it's behind a hay bale or something. We also added a second small shelter. For a while, we had a little cockerel who wasn't allowed to seek shade or water in the coop, or shelter from rain, until I added a second small shelter, with plenty of water and extra food under there.

Again, skip the roosters. Some are calm and perfectly well behaved around kids, but you just never know what you will get, and roos aggressive to kids are more common that the sweet type that ignore all the handling of hens. Those are rare and golden, if you manage to get one.

ETA: with my limited experience, I love BO's in the flock, but I would never have a entire flock of just them. Their well-known tendency to go broody is absolutely true. That's really another reason to have multiple breeds. (Conversely, I like BO's in the flock, so I can have dependable broodies to hatch a clutch of chicks).

 

[Alex41]

Thanks so much to everyone for the helpful replies!!

I'm glad I posted my questions, because I hadn't expected the responses about roosters and small children. I'll keep them out of the flock for at least the first year. I've heard roosters can be unpredictable, but didn't think they would literally bite the hand that feeds them. Don't need that in my flock.

I live in Eastern Pennsylvania, Allentown/Lehigh Valley area. Single family home on 3 acres, mostly open field. Plenty of room for chickens. I'll build my coop and run on the bigger side due to size advice. My plan was to have the coop, with an enclosed, predator proof run. Beyond that I'd like to take advantage of the open space and have a larger fence area for them to occasionally eat bugs, grass, etc. That type of fence will still need some planning with rotating space and predators. Maybe a daytime chicken tractor to move around. But that is for another thread.

Thanks again,
Alex

 

[lazy gardener]

Alex, you might want to look into electric poultry netting. With your open space, that would be awesome for you.

 

[SunnySkies]

I have coops all over my 7 acres and just let the birds run loose, no netting, so they can eat bigs and grass at will. I got LGDs to keep the predators away. But I have thought the netting would be nice to keep babies safe.

 

[Alex41]

Alex, you might want to look into electric poultry netting. With your open space, that would be awesome for you.

I have been thinking the same thing. I'm near the top of a hill with a line of trees that apparently provide an updraft that hawks like to soar in. The coop will be located along those trees. I'd hate to set up a fly-through buffet for them. Many things to consider.

Alex