Beginner turkey breeding

[R2elk]

Breeds or varieties, it is all just a matter of APA semantics. I would pick one breed / variety and go with it a few years. I raise Blacks. Turkeys take up a lot of space so it is difficult to do well if you have a number of different kinds & you are wanting to improve your specific breed. I TRY to avoid sibling pairing just like I do in chickens.

Actually it isn't just about semantics. Turkeys are extremely closely related to the point that all but the Ocellated turkey belong to the same haploid group. The Ocellated turkey is a separate species and all other turkeys are the same species (Meleagris gallopavo) and differ only in the subspecies. All domestic turkeys are descended from the wild turkey (Meleagris gallopavo gallopavo).

 

[cgmccary]

Actually it isn't just about semantics. Turkeys are extremely closely related to the point that all but the Ocellated turkey belong to the same haploid group. The Ocellated turkey is a separate species and all other turkeys are the same species (Meleagris gallopavo) and differ only in the subspecies. All domestic turkeys are descended from the wild turkey (Meleagris gallopavo gallopavo).

Turkeys could just have easily been made different breeds too and many of us turkey breeders have wondered why they were not. Domestic chicken breeds are all one Genus and species too. That has nothing to do with it. Chickens could have been called "varieties" and not "breeds" just as easily as turkeys. Thje Ocellated turkey being a separate species is a man-made concoction too. Living species are defined by what can breed and make non-sterile offspring. Chicken "breeds" can all do that & the Oscellated turkey can be bred to other turkeys that can reproduce -- we humans like to put things in nice little understandable packages. Chicken domestic breeds are all human creatd or induced (landraces) -- semantics.

 

[R2elk]

Turkeys could just have easily been made different breeds too and many of us turkey breeders have wondered why they were not. Domestic chicken breeds are all one Genus and species too. That has nothing to do with it. Chickens could have been called "varieties" and not "breeds" just as easily as turkeys. Thje Ocellated turkey being a separate species is a man-made concoction too. Living species are defined by what can breed and make non-sterile offspring. Chicken "breeds" can all do that & the Oscellated turkey can be bred to other turkeys that can reproduce -- we humans like to put things in nice little understandable packages. Chicken domestic breeds are all human creatd or induced (landraces) -- semantics.

When one cross breeds two separate breeds, one would expect to get something that is different from both the parents. If you cross a Bronze tom with a Narragansett hen the offspring will all be Bronze turkeys with the female offspring being pure Bronze and all the males will be Bronze but carrying a hidden recessive Narragansett gene. That is not the type of result that I would expect from mating two separate breeds but it is the kind of results that regularly happens when mating two different varieties of turkeys.

Do not confuse the Ocellated turkey with the Osceola turkey. All other turkeys have great similarities and only the Ocellated turkey has a head which does not resemble the head of any other variety of turkey.

I do not know where you got your information about crossbred Ocellated turkeys since they are very rare in captivity and from all reports are very difficult to get to reproduce and survive since they are a tropical bird.

 

[cgmccary]

APA made one breeds and the other varieties.

When one cross breeds two separate breeds, one would expect to get something that is different from both the parents. If you cross a Bronze tom with a Narragansett hen the offspring will all be Bronze turkeys with the female offspring being pure Bronze and all the males will be Bronze but carrying a hidden recessive Narragansett gene. That is not the type of result that I would expect from mating two separate breeds but it is the kind of results that regularly happens when mating two different varieties of turkeys.

Do not confuse the Ocellated turkey with the Osceola turkey. All other turkeys have great similarities and only the Ocellated turkey has a head which does not resemble the head of any other variety of turkey.

I do not know where you got your information about crossbred Ocellated turkeys since they are very rare in captivity and from all reports are very difficult to get to reproduce and survive since they are a tropical bird.

When my Blacks are crossed with a Bronze, I get something that is different from both parents, exactly what I would expect with two breeds, fwiw. I misspoke about the Ocellated being man-made (or the way I said it was not very good)-- what I mean by my statement is that it can breed with manmade turkeys and produce non-sterile offspring -- putting it as a separate species is a man-made concoction. Humans decide what is a separate species or a breed or a variety -- that is what I meant about man-made concoction, not the turkey itself. My point is taxonomy and also calling things breeds or varieties is something we humans do with animals, both domestic and wild animals. I still maintain, the APA could just have easily called them separate breeds and not varieties. We have this need to neatly categorize things. I am neither complaining nor endorsing it. It is what it is.

 

[R2elk]

APA made one breeds and the other varieties.


When my Blacks are crossed with a Bronze, I get something that is different from both parents, exactly what I would expect with two breeds, fwiw. I misspoke about the Ocellated being man-made (or the way I said it was not very good)-- what I mean by my statement is that it can breed with manmade turkeys and produce non-sterile offspring -- putting it as a separate species is a man-made concoction. Humans decide what is a separate species or a breed or a variety -- that is what I meant about man-made concoction, not the turkey itself. My point is taxonomy and also calling things breeds or varieties is something we humans do with animals, both domestic and wild animals. I still maintain, the APA could just have easily called them separate breeds and not varieties. We have this need to neatly categorize things. I am neither complaining nor endorsing it. It is what it is.

Your Blacks crossed with a Bronze create a Barred Black which differs from both varieties in color only. Breeding those Barred Blacks to each other then will produce 50% Barred Blacks, 25% Blacks and 25% Bronze. So you have not created a new breed with that cross, just a different color variation.

The Ocellated turkey is the same genus as the wild and domestic turkeys and is justifiably a different species. Being the same genus and a different species would not stop them from successfully mating and producing offspring although other than a study of Turkey Hybrids by F.W. Lorenz, V.S. Asmundson and N.E. Wilson in 1956, I can only find anecdotal reports of your claim of the mating producing fertile offspring. That study was done back when the Ocellated turkey was considered a separate genus and species which has since changed and the Ocellated turkey is now also the genus Meleagris.

For the purpose of domestic turkeys the APA did designate the breed as Turkey and recognized 8 Varieties. I personally agree with them and you apparently do have a problem with this designation.

 

[cgmccary]

Your Blacks crossed with a Bronze create a Barred Black which differs from both varieties in color only. Breeding those Barred Blacks to each other then will produce 50% Barred Blacks, 25% Blacks and 25% Bronze. So you have not created a new breed with that cross, just a different color variation.

The Ocellated turkey is the same genus as the wild and domestic turkeys and is justifiably a different species. Being the same genus and a different species would not stop them from successfully mating and producing offspring although other than a study of Turkey Hybrids by F.W. Lorenz, V.S. Asmundson and N.E. Wilson in 1956, I can only find anecdotal reports of your claim of the mating producing fertile offspring. That study was done back when the Ocellated turkey was considered a separate genus and species which has since changed and the Ocellated turkey is now also the genus Meleagris.

For the purpose of domestic turkeys the APA did designate the breed as Turkey and recognized 8 Varieties. I personally agree with them and you apparently do have a problem with this designation.

I do not disagree making the Ocellated a different species just like I do not disagree making different varieties of turkeys different turkey "breeds." Wild turkeys in the States are different subspecies. So what? I realize these turkey varieties have only recently been created so I have no problem using whatever word you want to use. For that matter, a lot of chicken breeds are recently created (a lot only last 200 years) NH, Delawares, note even a hundred years.

I know my Blacks crossed differ only in color only, and I never said they were some new breed. What I said is that I get something different than both parents just like I would if I crossed to chicken breeds. Your 50/25/25 is not necessarily so (I know genetically that is what the book says)-- it is not that neat in crossing turkey breeds-- again, probably because they have only recently been created ad often a lot hidden. I have had several varieties of turkeys during my life. I got my first turkeys 50 years ago. I had the CH Turkey at Ohio National this past November, Reserve CH at Knoxville the next month I love my Blacks. We eat them, exhibit them, and I have improved them. I neither agree or disagree with the term "variety" or "breed" or any other way they are categorized although I still say it is just words. I don;t disagree with what you are saying but I stick by that it is just semantics and means nothing what you call them. We can agree to disagree on that point.

 

[R2elk]

I do not disagree making the Ocellated a different species just like I do not disagree making different varieties of turkeys different turkey "breeds." Wild turkeys in the States are different subspecies. So what? I realize these turkey varieties have only recently been created so I have no problem using whatever word you want to use. For that matter, a lot of chicken breeds are recently created (a lot only last 200 years) NH, Delawares, note even a hundred years.

I know my Blacks crossed differ only in color only, and I never said they were some new breed. What I said is that I get something different than both parents just like I would if I crossed to chicken breeds. Your 50/25/25 is not necessarily so (I know genetically that is what the book says)-- it is not that neat in crossing turkey breeds-- again, probably because they have only recently been created ad often a lot hidden. I have had several varieties of turkeys during my life. I got my first turkeys 50 years ago. I had the CH Turkey at Ohio National this past November, Reserve CH at Knoxville the next month I love my Blacks. We eat them, exhibit them, and I have improved them. I neither agree or disagree with the term "variety" or "breed" or any other way they are categorized although I still say it is just words. I don;t disagree with what you are saying but I stick by that it is just semantics and means nothing what you call them. We can agree to disagree on that point.

What you seem to miss is that turkeys are far more closely related genetically to each other than chickens are to each other. You wanting to call the different varieties of turkeys as breeds is like thinking the different color variations in a breed of chickens should each be their own breed.

The 50/25/25 ratio is correct if a sufficient quantity are hatched. Each small individual batch of offspring may or may not come out in that ratio but as long as there are no hidden recessive color genes the 50/25/25 ratio is correct. If hidden recessive color genes are present, the proper matings will expose them and they can also be factored in.