Black Copper Marans discussion thread

[math ace]

Quote:
Lisa, my friend, seems like this is something similiar to what we discussed on crossing varieties. Don

How do you improve a line if it is best to not cross lines? My novice thinking would be deal with the DQ's that crop up, cull, cull, cull and eventually end up with better birds. How can this be equated to crossing varieties? I know nothing, please give it to me straight!

So, I will take on the first question - - -

Don't mix the lines because anyone who has done it has regretted it for a while. It is one step forward and three back.
So, with in the line - - - you cull and use line breeding. It does not mean you can not get new stock. . . . just stay within that line.

My hens are davis / presley mix. (Somebody else already did the one step forward and three back move

)
My roo is Davis - Pure Davis.

This is how improvements within the line happen - - - - My roo is short back and my hens are long back. My chicks are looking much better. Hence, selective breeding of opposites can do wonders.

Now my roo has the white feather issue. . ..
I have been looking for someone with Davis blood to supply me with NEW stock that does not have the white feather issue.

I wouldn't want to cross lines and get the Jeanne line because wierd things would happen and I have enough problems already.

Pink has Davis and no white feather and there are a few others with Davis that have kept them pure.

I am finding that people cull with different things in mind . . . . so birds quickly change once they leave a breeders hands. Some what to get combs perfect first, some want SIZE, etc. . . So another Davis bird does not have to have the same fault my roo does because people cull their birds differently.

NOW for the varierties question - - Don does not have total buy in from me on this one. I think we both agree that a Black helps a blue. HOWEVER, I can tell you if a blue / black crossing produced me a BCM without a white feather , I PERSONALLY would be real hard pressed not to use it. I don't think I could walk away from the Black Copper produced without the white feather issue. . . .

Maybe I would be trading evils, BUT I am not sure you can get much worse than the white feather battle. Those that I have spoke to say if it isn't gone by a certain time period it is not going to go away. The offspring get it too. It is a BAD DQ that is hard to overcome.. . . .

 

[Zanna]

I wouldn't want to cross lines and get the Jeanne line because wierd things would happen and I have enough problems already.

OK, so every line has hidden genes that are bad and that is why things get so messed up? I think I got it.............​

 

[mmilcic]

so if I have Jane wade line I should only use Jane wade line to improve my stock?

 

[Lotsapaints]

Quote:
If yours is only Wade yes stay with it mine are Wade and Davis so I'm going to try some pure Wade and later some pure Davis and see what happens. Since I've yet to get a worthy Black Copper Rooster I'm crossing a Davis/Wade Splash rooster over Davis/ Wade black Copper hens but they are from different breeders who knows what will hatch I have more in the incubator from the same breeder of the rooster just be sure to match the rooster with the hens and cull hard breeding these birds to the SOP takes time and mostly single mating to know what is going on with the chicks you hatch since we have been sharing our results it seems to help. Enjoy your birds and have fun not everyone has the same goals.

 

[math ace]

Quote:
OK, so every line has hidden genes that are bad and that is why things get so messed up? I think I got it.............

I typed in a response last night, but my computer locked up on me and I couldn't send it . . . So, I will do it again.. ..

My darlin son likes to mix things. One of his favorite things to mix is baking soda and vinegar. Both of these items when separate are inert and do no harm. However, when you mix them, you can get a nasty explosive mess.

This is what happens when you mix lines. . .

Davis line by itself has certain traits that are predictable. The Jeane line by itself has cetain traits that are predictable. HOWEVER, when you mix them - -- - genetic stuff happens that creates a genetic EXPLOSION. There is no telling what kind of mess you will be creating that you will spend a few generations cleaning up.

A lot of the mess can be cleaned up . . . . but it does take time and lots and lots of culling.

 

[Debbi]

Quote:
I think you may mean "Wade Jeane" line? I've never heard of Jane Wade?

 

[mmilcic]

Quote:
If yours is only Wade yes stay with it mine are Wade and Davis so I'm going to try some pure Wade and later some pure Davis and see what happens. Since I've yet to get a worthy Black Copper Rooster I'm crossing a Davis/Wade Splash rooster over Davis/ Wade black Copper hens but they are from different breeders who knows what will hatch I have more in the incubator from the same breeder of the rooster just be sure to match the rooster with the hens and cull hard breeding these birds to the SOP takes time and mostly single mating to know what is going on with the chicks you hatch since we have been sharing our results it seems to help. Enjoy your birds and have fun not everyone has the same goals.

does that mean that is is ok to mate brother and sister I thought that was bad ???

 

[snowbird]

Now is a good time for me to say that I do not have a problem with breeding a Black copper from any of the lines together. I see no difference in the egg color. Every so called line of BC has problems and do not see where it will hurt the BC to mix them. I have not seen a BC line yet that does not have the white feather problem , if someone has a line that does not have lots of white in wing and tail and neck undercolor now would be a good time to come forward with the evidence. Don

 

[pinkchick]

Quote:
I agree with Don....I don't see a problem with mixing the different lines of BCM, it's up to the individual person.....HOWEVER....one must remember that each individual line of birds (regardless of breed or breeder) has faults and reccessive genetics that they bring with them to the table and when crossing the lines the chances of some of those reccessive genetics or faults increases and will pop up and show themselves at some point. The key is to be prepared for unexpected surprizes and variations and egg color loss. If a bird is a good specimen and you feel that it will lend improvement to the offspring USE IT!!!!!!! It can't hurt anything....the only thing it can do is show you what the 2 lines crossed will produce after you grow a few of the offspring out and possibly even another cross of the offspring produced back to one of the parent birds. If the outcome is less than desirable, one would simply cease making this cross and try something different.
Me personally I like having one pen of pure Davis birds to work with and I also have 2 other pens of project birds, one has a roo that I know nothing of his background (unrelated) in and the other has a roo that was produced from crossing him to a Davis bird. I am crossing these boys over some pure Davis pullets and now crossing back to the first generation of crossed lined offspring....matter of fact I have no clue as to his background or where my all time favorite rooster came from.....I just know that he lends AWESOME qualities to his offspring and I know he hatched from one of the darkest Marans eggs I have ever seen....so I use him and I am very happy with the results of what the cross of this boy over the Davis birds produces.
As for the white feather problem.....I hadn't had a white feather show up until after my pure Davis roo molted and 2 white feathers showed up in his tail after he turned 1.5 years old...I am on the fence as to whether or not this is the dreaded white feather or not because now months later the white is almost completely gone and the feathers are blue again. I believe that this happened from me injuring him on accident one day as I was trying to catch him and ended up with a handful of tail feathers instead of bird......a couple weeks later I noticed the tail feathers starting to fade to white.

 

[kathyinmo]

I just love the strain of Marans I have! They were hatched New Years Day, 15 weeks old.
I have 3 males; 2 blue and 1 black.
6 females; 2 blue and 4 black.