black copper Marans vs. black Marans

[chookster77]

I have a theory that to produce exhibition quality (standard bred) BCMs, they will need to be double mated (keep a pullet breeding line and a cockerel breeding line). Plus, I'm not convinced the standard can be met with a purebred ER (birchen) at all UNLESS there are present unknown melanizers for which we don't really understand the action of entirely. I'm thinking BCM show birds may even, by necessity, need to be heterozygous E/ER. And I'm not so sure if Mh (Mahogany) has a role in this breed or not (unless, possibly, heterozygous)... Bottom line, I think this would take a LOT of test matings for someone to figure out!

Good luck to you folks! You've got your work cut out for you untangling the hot mess that US Marans are, in general! (

)

TC

 

[onthespot]

That's okay. Time I have. And I like a puzzle that is many dimensional rather than just one or two genes. I still don't know the names of the genes but I am starting to see how they interact. There will be a market for my culls for years to come, even as novel laying hens. Roos, they get what cull roos have always gotten. The axe. I probably hatched out fifty chicks this summer, hoping for some more good roos. Out of all that I have it narrowed down to just a very few to grow out, two promising ones and one bizzare spangled one... I just couldn't bring myself to do him in. Yet. I'm sure his day will come.

 

[Krys109uk]

Hmmm.What melanizers are we talking about here? It doesn't take Ml or cha, in any case.

You do realise that there are far more melanising genes than have been thoroughly investigated & documented, I presume?
An E bird would be likely to have melanotic (Ml), & recessive black (rb) which, I have read, is used as cover all name for various recessive melanisers which have not been thoroughly investigated, & other un-named genes which are usually collectively referred to as melanisers or black enhancers.

Is there really more trouble, or do we simply discuss it more openly?

I can say from having bred Marans for many years both sides the pond, without a shadow of doubt there has been far more crossing to other breeds in US, presumably due to limited availability.
Marans are readily available in EU. In France the Copper Blacks are common farmyard birds; they are readily vailable in Belgium, Netherlands, Germany, Switzerland & even though there is a British type marans as standard in UK it didn't take much to pop over to France & get some chicks.

I remember before I left UK I used to be nonplussed by comments from various people in the US about their marans having a pea comb, (well they called it a walnut), clearly the birds had been crossed to brahmas. Hans Schippers made the comment that the cuckoo Marans in US were not marans but more like Speckledys (a common hybrid in EU) because their egg colour was much the same as that of a rhodie. Much has improved over the last 5 years. As much as anything from the number of eggs posted over from UK. I knew lots of people who were posting eggs to US. It was nothing unusual.​

 

[amazondoc]

Quote:
I'm sure there are -- but *I* don't know them, because they aren't on the chicken calculator.

The issue of black is interesting to me not only because of Marans, but because I also have a fair number of "black" bantam araucanas -- with various degrees of blackness. I also have several blue and splash birds in the same breed. I'm pretty sure that none of them are extended black, but it makes me think of the whole puzzle surrounding blackness.

An E bird would be likely to have melanotic (Ml), & recessive black (rb) which, I have read, is used as cover all name for various recessive melanisers which have not been thoroughly investigated, & other un-named genes which are usually collectively referred to as melanisers or black enhancers.

I've never heard of recessive black. Thanks, I'll have to look that one up!​

 

[Krys109uk]

I also have a fair number of "black" bantam araucanas -- with various degrees of blackness. I also have several blue and splash birds in the same breed. I'm pretty sure that none of them are extended black, but it makes me think of the whole puzzle surrounding blackness

I find it a bit of a puzzler with my Marans. There are differences in chick down.....but then a proper copper black has chick down which looks more like a typical E.

A bird which is black with leakage is more likely to be E with missing melanisers than ER with extra melanisers.

I don't think rb is really a single gene I think it is to signify the recessive melanisers which can be lost when outcrossing from a black bird.

I have a few hypotheses about recognising marans split for various genes, if you're interested. Nothing certain, just observations.​

 

[amazondoc]

Well -- fortunately or unfortunately, you have revealed a whole new world of uncertainty and insufficient knowledge to me. Thanks, I think.

I'd love to hear your theories about hets, whether here or PM or email. I'm an information junkie, I can't help it.

 

[blackdotte]

In countries (Australia & New Zealand) that have been isolated for over 50 years breeders have become adept at creating or re-creating many breeds and varieties. Having said that you can't produce something that is not in your poultry genome. The Copper Black coloured phenotypes, genetically Melanised Gold Birchins, are not hard to produce. Any Extended Black bird mated to diminish the melanisers, or any Birchin mated to increase melanisation will produce this colour. They however may not breed true if introduced into another strain of fowl. A Copper Black coloured bird with black eyes ,to me, would suggest an out cross to something like an Australorp, Orpington or Langshan.
They are, ovcourse, not a Marans unless they have correct type & egg colour.
They could cause great problems in the hands of inexperienced or greedy people,
David

 

[Krys109uk]

In countries (Australia & New Zealand) that have been isolated for over 50 years breeders have become adept at creating or re-creating many breeds and varieties.

Too right. You people down under have done some phenomenal genetic recreations & creations.​

 

[ruth]

I've just read the last two pages of posts and all I can say is "Wow" - you folks sure know your stuff. My head hurts now.

 

[CHICKEN little 1]

Quote:
That makes two of us.

I need to go to genetics classes,or at least try to figure out the genetic calculator! This could take a while.....