Blue Copper and Splash Copper Marans Discussion

[snowbird]

Kim, We recently bought some White Marans eggs from north eastern Ohio. One hatched out a self blue chick, what the people on BYC call a Lavender color. How could this happen and why ?

 

[pinkchick]

Kim, We recently bought some White Marans eggs from north eastern Ohio. One hatched out a self blue chick, what the people on BYC call a Lavender color. How could this happen and why ?

Is this a test?


I'm not sure but I know I can find some info for you.

 

[pinkchick]

Borrowed from one of my favorite sites to read and learn about colors: http://kippenjungle.nl/basisEN.htm

Consensus and Debate about Chicken Eumelanin Diluters:


Best studied eumelanin diluter is Dominant White. Heterozygotes often show a grayish tint of white and speckles of colored feathers. This white is epistatic to all other eumelanin diluters. Phaeomelanin is not greatly affected, at least in 1 dose. In my own experience Dominant White seems to act as a melanizer, expanding the former black patterned areas. This could be interpreted as phaeomelanin inhibition also, the old consensus.

Most common after that is Blue, being the heterozygous form of Splash. This a gray dilution of black that has a nice contrast with the gold and red tints of the chicken's groundcolor, which it does not affect. Blue tends to be uneven, dark edged or speckled with black and can be darkened by melanizers up to flat black. It also tends to get rusty. Splash (homozygous) is similar to heterozygote Dominant White as it can range from pure white to grayish and speckled.

Then came Lavender or self blue, for the other blue tends to be laced in appearance. This is a recessive mutation often associated with bad feather structure. Ihe consensus is that it is epistatic to the other dilutants by the nature of expression mechanism. Truely epistatic would mean however that it would also cover splash or khaki (hence "white?" in table below). This needs to be confirmed either way. Until then the fanciers' consensus is that the whites would not permit to show the lavender tint. This tint is lighter than splash Blue. Other poultry species' lavenders/self blues do not seem to act epistatic to other diluters and contribute in further dilution of the eumelanin. Lavender also dilutes Phaeomelanin (groundcolor) in chickens. Breeding tip: how to breed with lavender...

Dominant White mutation has produced a revertant mutation called Smoky. This allele is dominant to Dominant White but recessive to wildtype. It acts against the mechanism of Dominant White rendering a smoky blue color similar to splash Blue. This blue color would be purebreedable like lavender. The mutation is very rare though, so don't worry about your splash Blue chickens.

There is another allele on the Dominant White gene/locus called Dun. It is recessive to Dominant White but (semi-)dominant to the other alleles. Two copies of the allele render a Khaki color, also called Dun Splash for it can be very white. It is also a clean kind of white, no specks. Darkened by melanizers it gives a nice light brownish lavender tint. One copy of the allele gives a chocolate color instead of black. This is a nice even color ranging from brownish gray to near black chocolate color (probably due to melanizers). No black spots like splash Blue can have. Dun is not very common in some continents, as is Chocolate. Both mutations are often missed or seen as off black.

 

[snowbird]

Is this a test?

I'm not sure but I know I can find some info for you.

Kim, So I am thinking I could breed this Blue male back into White Marans, What do you think about doing this breeding. We hatched five chicks from these eggs and he is the best type Marans of all.

 

[cajun backwoods]

First of all you are not in over your head......just remember to have fun with them and enjoy them! Marans are great fun!

Now let's talk about how to get those Splash birds.

1st~ BCM crossed with the White Marans is NOT how Splash is created. White and Splash are 2 different things.

The blue gene is a diluting gene and 1 copy of the gene effects black, diluting it to blue. Your pullet only has 1 copy of the blue gene making her the "blue" that we see. If she did not have the blue gene, she would be a Black Copper.

Splash birds are BLUE birds that have 2 copies of the blue gene. When the 2 copies of the blue gene present it dilutes the blue to a white-ish color feather and allows leakage of other random lighter and darker blue feathers randomly throughout the birds plumage, it also allows the copper to show, but the copper is usually random and broken and not a complete pattern like you will see on the Blue Copper and the Black Copper. Also, it is said that the blue gene and it's diluting effects can lighten the copper coloring a bit from time to time, but I don't normally see this in my birds.

To create a Splash bird you will need 2 Blue birds or a Splash bird and a Blue bird. Westkyracers recent post with the 2 cockerels in it.....the first photo and the last photo are a splash male.

Blue does not breed true. In other words, when 2 blue birds are bred together they will create all 3 colors....black, blue and splash. If you breed your blue gal to one of your black roosters you will get blue and black offspring. Keep the best blue male from that cross and breed him back to his blue mother and this will produce black, blue and splash chicks.

Below is the expected color ratio of offspring from blue matings......I should say that this ratio is based on the number of eggs set at a time and I believe that I remember that number being around 20 eggs or more.

Blue x Blue = 50% blue, 25% black and 25% splash

Blue x Splash = 50% splash and 50% blue

Blue x Black = 50% blue and 50% black

Black x Splash = 100% blue

Splash x Splash = 100% splash

Black x Black = 100% black

wow thanx

im gonna save this because i know i will have to reread it a few times lol thanx again

 

[pinkchick]

Kim, So I am thinking I could breed this Blue male back into White Marans, What do you think about doing this breeding. We hatched five chicks from these eggs and he is the best type Marans of all.

Don,

If it is one of the mutations like described above, like either the Smoky or the Lavender, I don't see a problem breeding the male back to the white Marans because both of those are as mentioned above "purebreedable" and would produce split offspring and you could use them in a couple of directions. You could create a new color variety of Marans and or continue to work on the White.
If he is a good type Marans and hatch from a good colored egg how could you go wrong? If he doesn't produce anything worth using.......I know you are totally not afraid of hard culling.

How old is the male?

Have you thought about testing him to another color variety first to see what he will produce by way of chick color? I wonder what color chicks he would throw if crossed to something other than the White Marans first....just a curiousity. If you had access to a Lavender bird to test him to that would be the easiest way to see if he is truly self blue.

Has the breeder they came from ever seen this before?

How about putting him that light box of yours and snapping a photo of him for us......I have to see him now after talking about him.


Here's an interesting tidbit:
I have been doing quite a bit of talking with some breeders from many different parts of the country and a common thread of the discussions have been about Orpingtons and that they had/have been crossed into some lines of Marans in the past.....if this is truly the case...then I could see where the Lavender or some of the White mutations could happen, but let me say this is TOTALLY only speculation and conversations had...... I have no proof and am not putting this out there to stir anything.....just talking about possibilities.


Personally, I wholly believe that here in the USA everything has been crossed into the Marans, except the kitchen sink.

Edited to Add: Forgot to mention the color variety of Marans discussed in these conversations.........White.

Also was going to ask what color his legs are?

 

[pinkchick]

wow thanx

im gonna save this because i know i will have to reread it a few times lol thanx again

Your welcome! Don't ever stop asking questions if you have them. No worries on rereading...........I am still rereading everything many times and then many times again. Sometimes, more often than not, it takes many trips around the inside of the ol' cheerio (my brain) for me to get it. Seems the only time it comes easy for me is when it is written in crayon. This is an awesome place this BYC and lots of great folks willing to take us newbies under their wings and advise and guide us with their expertise and experiences.

 

[Chickenman76]

First of all you are not in over your head......just remember to have fun with them and enjoy them! Marans are great fun!

Now let's talk about how to get those Splash birds.

1st~ BCM crossed with the White Marans is NOT how Splash is created. White and Splash are 2 different things.

The blue gene is a diluting gene and 1 copy of the gene effects black, diluting it to blue. Your pullet only has 1 copy of the blue gene making her the "blue" that we see. If she did not have the blue gene, she would be a Black Copper.

Splash birds are BLUE birds that have 2 copies of the blue gene. When the 2 copies of the blue gene present it dilutes the blue to a white-ish color feather and allows leakage of other random lighter and darker blue feathers randomly throughout the birds plumage, it also allows the copper to show, but the copper is usually random and broken and not a complete pattern like you will see on the Blue Copper and the Black Copper. Also, it is said that the blue gene and it's diluting effects can lighten the copper coloring a bit from time to time, but I don't normally see this in my birds.

To create a Splash bird you will need 2 Blue birds or a Splash bird and a Blue bird. Westkyracers recent post with the 2 cockerels in it.....the first photo and the last photo are a splash male.

Blue does not breed true. In other words, when 2 blue birds are bred together they will create all 3 colors....black, blue and splash. If you breed your blue gal to one of your black roosters you will get blue and black offspring. Keep the best blue male from that cross and breed him back to his blue mother and this will produce black, blue and splash chicks.

Below is the expected color ratio of offspring from blue matings......I should say that this ratio is based on the number of eggs set at a time and I believe that I remember that number being around 20 eggs or more.

Blue x Blue = 50% blue, 25% black and 25% splash

Blue x Splash = 50% splash and 50% blue

Blue x Black = 50% blue and 50% black

Black x Splash = 100% blue

Splash x Splash = 100% splash

Black x Black = 100% black

Got a question, does the first chicken on this chart represent a Roo? Or does it matter?

 

[pinkchick]

Got a question, does the first chicken on this chart represent a Roo? Or does it matter?

Hi!

Either way...male or female, it really does not matter as the crossings will still produce the colors stated provided enough eggs are set.

However, I will say that it is suggested by many breeders to use the male of color that you are wanting to produce.

I have found that I don't always get the color ratio results as predicted when I set a smaller number of eggs from my blue to blue matings. Seems like when I am seriously wanting a particular color of chick to hatch, like some splash babies ......it doesn't happen and all I get is blue or black, but other times, I will get the majority splash and maybe one or two blues. LOL!
Good thing those silly hens keep on laying so we can keep on trying, right?

 

[snowbird]

Kim, I will be in that brooder pen tomorrow and will get a picture of the blue male. He is about seven weeks old. He has the white legs. Very good looking Marans even if he is odd colored. With the Marans I do not believe the genetic formulas will work , with all the out of breed crossing going on.