Bob Blosl's Heritage Large Fowl Thread

[3riverschick]

Hi,
I have long believed that it's not how much stock one has, it's how they are bred. Years ago, when I was studying collie history, I came across an obscure article in a Collie Cub of America Yearbook from the latter 1940's titled, "The Very Small Kennel". It was the genetic history of a legendary collie kennel called Silver-Ho. Now this kennel was only in existence for about 7 years. The owner was a veterinarian. She bred a very limited number of litters. Less than 10. Yet, from her kennel were descended whole families of collies. Some of the most famous studs in the breed were very close-up descendants of her collies. How did this happen? She did not run a hundred collies like the other monied kennels of the day owned by the rich. This lady had an eye for a dog and an intuition of what the breed needed at that moment. She chose collies from various kennels of quality blood and melded the families bloods with an eye to the breeds present and future needs. In other words, it wasn't how many she bred, it was how she bred them. This article changed the way I thought about breeding. I applied her tactics to my very small collie kennel ( now retired) with good success. Collies out of my bitches worked successfully in 9 different venues. One became a premier Ch. stud at another kennel.
Success isn't about numbers. It's about 3 things in breeding philosophy.
1. Understanding the nuances of the breed. ( This is the deepest level of understanding the breed as a whole. It is the result of studyng the history and origins of one's breed and "hands on" explanations with choice examples of the breed from various stocks.).
2. Understanding when and how to apply all breeding plans available.
( This knowledge allows the breeder the greatest flexibility in their creative efforts).
3. Understanding what a breed needs not just now, but in the near future to move it forward.
( this breeder understands the future of the breed and his/her proper stock is thus in demand).

If one has these 3 knowledges and incorporates it with successful poultry management skills, then I believe one has the tools needed for success.
Judge Card illustrates this in his little book on Breeding Laws http://archive.org/details/cu31924003158312 when he explains his breeding chart
which can literally start with just 2 birds. And end up with 2 successful line-bred strains.

I completely agree with the wisdom of having others with one's own strain. Both for their enjoyment and as a protection against flock loss. And how we were taught that the same strain living 500 miles apart could be considered line-bred, or even out-cross stock to one's own flock.
Best Success,
Karen

 

[Lacy Blues]

I have been thinking of and studying about doing a breeding program with the color families and eliminating record keeping almost completely...

if you started with a flock of black birds and then added blue/splash and dun/khaki u could have 3 color lines that all where color coded at hatch and would breed true but could be crossed every few years when needed...

so you could have one big flock with all 5 colors in it (very pretty and would satisfy ppl's need for a verity in there flocks)... then come breeding season pick out your best 2 pairs or trios of blacks add them to breeding pens and set and hatch the eggs all chicks would be pure black and belong to the black family... then pick out your best blue cock and put over a few splash hens and your best splash cock over a few blue hens all the chicks would be blue or splash and belong to the blue/splash family... and finally use your best dun cock over khaki hens and your best khaki cock over dun hens all the chicks would be dun or khaki and belong to your dun/khaki family...

u could leg or wing band every chick with one band to designate which year it was hatched this would be the only record keeping needed... you would not have to band or toe punch or wright down any where what family or line that chicks came from...

this would allow you to greatly simplify your infrastructure needs to... build one large coop and run for your main flock and when u where home let them free range some... then build 1 or 2 breeding pens... look over your flock in the spring and see which color u had the fewest of (like from winter or predator losses) and put them into breeding pens 1st... bred and hatch for say 2 months or even just one month... then let those birds loose and pick your next color to breed from... 1 or 2 months with them and then pick out your birds from your last color family to breed from...

for about 3 years keep breeding with this plan and then one year take a black cock over splash hens= all blue chicks that would belong to the blue/splash family now and would provide for the out-cross needed... the next year put a black cock over khaki hens= all dun chicks belonging to the dun/khaki family and would have new blood... breed for 3 more years then put a black cock over a blue or dun hens= 50% black and 50% colored chicks... those chicks would belong to there respective color families and u would have new blood in your black flock as well...

seems to me this would greatly simplify record keeping which is daunting to some(like me with dyslexia)... but also allow for a large flock with 5 beautiful colors that could all run together except for your individual breeding pens during breeding season... also how many times have you had a predator attack that left u with hens and no cocks or cocks and no hens??? this would allow the breeder great flexibility... if u started with one color (blacks the most common in most breeds) of birds that where better than the others u could breed say black to dun(the rarest in most breeds) for several generations to improve your birds...

so the only problem is the only LF breed i know of with all 3 colors readily available is Sumatra's... the there is several ppl that are adding the dun color to orps and other LF breeds... so unless u wanted to take on the color project yourself this would have to wait a few years until stock is more readily available...

so what are y'all's thought and comments??? good bad ugly idk i can take it... thanks Elias

My only comment Elias, is that you don't sound dislexic to me!

 

[Lacy Blues]

Yes, they can ride piggy back and do often.

Jeff

That must be it. Those little fuzzy appendages that will some day be wings will certainly not hold enough air to propel their little bodies in any direction in their young lives. Jumping is pretty limited too.

 

[heritagehabitatfarms]

haha took about 30 min and when i did spell check the 1st time i had 73 words misspelled lol... all so had 3 misspelled so bad the spell checker could not fix them so had to go and look them up lol...

My only comment Elias, is that you don't sound dislexic to me!

 

[Fred's Hens]

Three smaller operations, working on the birds as partners, makes for a plenty large enough operation. An added benefit is that if one place has a catastrophic predator attack, the larger "flock" survives.

Team work.

 

[BarnGoddess01]

Barngodess, I have been steering clear of Silkies because I thought they were fragile, we get some cold snowy nights here, I don't heat the coop, and don't plan on it. Will check out the links and look into Silkies too. Thanks!

The Silkie thread would, I think, have you believe that Silkies are fragile and need special treatment. I have a very mixed flock of turkeys, muscovies, LF, and bantams that include Silkies and Seramas. They all get the exact same treatment and they all thrive. They sleep in the same, unheated, coop at night, even though we regularly get temps in the teens here in winter (and occasionally down to the single digits), and we routinely get triple digit temperatures in the summer. The Silkies have the same access to food and water as the rest of them, don't get heat in winter, or misted in summer, and yet, they seem happy as can be. Mine have to climb in a pop door that is 15" from the floor of the coop. I put in a couple of pavers as steps leading up to it so the ducks could access it more easily, and I expected the Silkies to use those same steps. I'll admit it took them awhile to learn to do this, probably because their vision isn't as good, but they DID learn it and now tuck themselves away in the coop every night, and are among the first out in the morning. In fact, after a recent snowstorm, the Silkies, ducks and turkeys were the only birds outside in the deep snow - the rest of the birds were hiding away in the coop. BGMatt - thanks for the tip - I'll have to check out Bob's website.

Perhaps some Silkies can be delicate so those ones might not last but I also keep my Silkies in an unheated/uninsulated coop and only provide heat if it goes into the single digits. (I'm not entirely convinced they needed the heat but it made me feel better.) I provide heated water. And I've also found my Silkies will figure out how to negotiate ramps and such. Also haven't found the Silkies to be any harder to hatch than any of the other breeds I work with. You don't need to raise the temperature on the incubator. All that will do is cause them to hatch sooner. I've hatched Silkies with standard size Marans and Ameraucanas. Temperature set at 99.6 throughout. Silkies hatched right in the middle.

 

[thedragonlady]

Hi,
I have long believed that it's not how much stock one has, it's how they are bred. Years ago, when I was studying collie history, I came across an obscure article in a Collie Cub of America Yearbook from the latter 1940's titled, "The Very Small Kennel". It was the genetic history of a legendary collie kennel called Silver-Ho. Now this kennel was only in existence for about 7 years. The owner was a veterinarian. She bred a very limited number of litters. Less than 10. Yet, from her kennel were descended whole families of collies. Some of the most famous studs in the breed were very close-up descendants of her collies. How did this happen? She did not run a hundred collies like the other monied kennels of the day owned by the rich. This lady had an eye for a dog and an intuition of what the breed needed at that moment. She chose collies from various kennels of quality blood and melded the families bloods with an eye to the breeds present and future needs. In other words, it wasn't how many she bred, it was how she bred them. This article changed the way I thought about breeding. I applied her tactics to my very small collie kennel ( now retired) with good success. Collies out of my bitches worked successfully in 9 different venues. One became a premier Ch. stud at another kennel.
Success isn't about numbers. It's about 3 things in breeding philosophy.
1. Understanding the nuances of the breed. ( This is the deepest level of understanding the breed as a whole. It is the result of studyng the history and origins of one's breed and "hands on" explanations with choice examples of the breed from various stocks.).
2. Understanding when and how to apply all breeding plans available.
( This knowledge allows the breeder the greatest flexibility in their creative efforts).
3. Understanding what a breed needs not just now, but in the near future to move it forward.
( this breeder understands the future of the breed and his/her proper stock is thus in demand).

If one has these 3 knowledges and incorporates it with successful poultry management skills, then I believe one has the tools needed for success.
Judge Card illustrates this in his little book on Breeding Laws http://archive.org/details/cu31924003158312 when he explains his breeding chart
which can literally start with just 2 birds. And end up with 2 successful line-bred strains.

I completely agree with the wisdom of having others with one's own strain. Both for their enjoyment and as a protection against flock loss. And how we were taught that the same strain living 500 miles apart could be considered line-bred, or even out-cross stock to one's own flock.
Best Success,
Karen

Good Post ! I may mutter about the constraints of being only allowed to keep a dozen grown birds in town, but I am forced to be very selective. I bred some of my best Silkies when I left my farm, and came here. Even though the Silkies were very easy to hide,as they lived inside, there simply wasn't room to keep an army.This taught me a couple of very valuable lessons:

It's more fun, and a whole less work, when you have just a few birds.

Having fewer birds, you can keep those you do have, in much better condition.

You are forced to sharpen your eye, and cull heavily, especially at first.

When you start having more good young birds than you can house, find a friend in the breed to share with. This insures that your line will survive a disaster, and sometimes two heads are better than one !

 

[fowlman01]

I have been thinking of and studying about doing a breeding program with the color families and eliminating record keeping almost completely...

if you started with a flock of black birds and then added blue/splash and dun/khaki u could have 3 color lines that all where color coded at hatch and would breed true but could be crossed every few years when needed...

so you could have one big flock with all 5 colors in it (very pretty and would satisfy ppl's need for a verity in there flocks)... then come breeding season pick out your best 2 pairs or trios of blacks add them to breeding pens and set and hatch the eggs all chicks would be pure black and belong to the black family... then pick out your best blue cock and put over a few splash hens and your best splash cock over a few blue hens all the chicks would be blue or splash and belong to the blue/splash family... and finally use your best dun cock over khaki hens and your best khaki cock over dun hens all the chicks would be dun or khaki and belong to your dun/khaki family...

u could leg or wing band every chick with one band to designate which year it was hatched this would be the only record keeping needed... you would not have to band or toe punch or wright down any where what family or line that chicks came from...

this would allow you to greatly simplify your infrastructure needs to... build one large coop and run for your main flock and when u where home let them free range some... then build 1 or 2 breeding pens... look over your flock in the spring and see which color u had the fewest of (like from winter or predator losses) and put them into breeding pens 1st... bred and hatch for say 2 months or even just one month... then let those birds loose and pick your next color to breed from... 1 or 2 months with them and then pick out your birds from your last color family to breed from...

for about 3 years keep breeding with this plan and then one year take a black cock over splash hens= all blue chicks that would belong to the blue/splash family now and would provide for the out-cross needed... the next year put a black cock over khaki hens= all dun chicks belonging to the dun/khaki family and would have new blood... breed for 3 more years then put a black cock over a blue or dun hens= 50% black and 50% colored chicks... those chicks would belong to there respective color families and u would have new blood in your black flock as well...

seems to me this would greatly simplify record keeping which is daunting to some(like me with dyslexia)... but also allow for a large flock with 5 beautiful colors that could all run together except for your individual breeding pens during breeding season... also how many times have you had a predator attack that left u with hens and no cocks or cocks and no hens??? this would allow the breeder great flexibility... if u started with one color (blacks the most common in most breeds) of birds that where better than the others u could breed say black to dun(the rarest in most breeds) for several generations to improve your birds...

so the only problem is the only LF breed i know of with all 3 colors readily available is Sumatra's... the there is several ppl that are adding the dun color to orps and other LF breeds... so unless u wanted to take on the color project yourself this would have to wait a few years until stock is more readily available...

so what are y'all's thought and comments??? good bad ugly idk i can take it... thanks Elias

It would probably work if color was the only concern, but how would you know what matings produced the best TYPE bird without record keeping?

Walt

 

[Robert Blosl]

Just think if you had four small breeders who had say Gray Dockings. The lives five hundred or miles apart. They could exchange bird every five to seven years for fresh blood and at least one of them should improve their bird enough to help the others slowing go from say 93 points average per flock to 94 and maybe one will get to say a score of 95 and be on champion row some where.

We have seen Buckeyes get this way thanks to the hard work of the Buck Eye breeders. Other breeds like Campiness have done it one time a White Face Black Spanish did it in Calif about ten years ago.

I call it Net Working in small number and or buddy system line breeding.

Just think if two of you where partners and each one of you had two family's of birds. You line breed, toe punch and breed and select each year as hard as you can. I no time you could take a rare breed and get it better.

I hope many of you do this.

I have about three people who are joining me in Mottle Javas. I have one new chick and I pray to GOD its a female. I will keep putting the eggs in the incubator. Then this winter two people gets a pen to take home and work with. One lives five hundred miles from me one is only 50 miles. Next year one or two more will come along. In five years we will have ten buddy's with the breed.

That's the plan, it will work. If you have the faith of a Mustard Seed and you plant it will grow. In order to be successful in breeding fancy foul it is no difference you got to put your heart and soul bob


Below is a great example of some very nice handsome birds and my hope is some day this line will be in the hands of four to six people and the buddy system will be used to keep them going for a long long time.

 

[suncatcher]

Quote: X2. Also, a very interesting concept on breeding for color. I am no expert on this, so will let the someone else answer.