Bob Blosl's Heritage Large Fowl Thread

[suncatcher]

Quote: Thanks, that is quite a list! Plenty to choose from.

 

[HEChicken]

So one of my customers and I were having this discussion today and I think it would be neat to bring here. It'd be nice for these rare breeds to have people that raise them in large numbers, keep careful records and preserve genetic diversity while still improving the breed, but that can't always happen. Is it better to let the breed shrink in numbers because there are less and less of those people than it is to have some small flocks out there where the person keeps small numbers, breeds best to the best, and within their small numbers of the breed improve it as much as possible, but aren't able to keep genetic diversity as high as we'd like so their birds might see some negative aspects of inbreeding 5-10 years down the road without new blood. Is that small flock operation worth anything or would it really better to just see the breed fades until it's gone, or needs to be recreated from scratch?

I'm not sure where I fall on this...although I'm leaning towards the side of as many small breeders as possible is ok, because then even if THEIR birds get inbred, there's more people like them they can outcross to and keep the breed at a higher level than the breed having to be recreated from scratch or hatchery stock (on breeds where this is even possible). This happens all the time on popular breeds.

BGMatt, I would lean towards numerous small breeders vs. seeing the breed die out altogether. A breeder who is serious about a particular breed is likely to seek out new blood to infuse along the way so as to avoid inbreeding.

I am getting ready to get serious about working with and improving a breed. I have already obtained what I hope will grow out to be a good quality cockerel from one source, and I have another on the way from a completely separate line/source. The challenge for me will be record keeping, to ensure I do keep the lines separate. I would love to hear how others go about the record keeping aspect of it.

 

[Yellow House Farm]

So one of my customers and I were having this discussion today and I think it would be neat to bring here. It'd be nice for these rare breeds to have people that raise them in large numbers, keep careful records and preserve genetic diversity while still improving the breed, but that can't always happen. Is it better to let the breed shrink in numbers because there are less and less of those people than it is to have some small flocks out there where the person keeps small numbers, breeds best to the best, and within their small numbers of the breed improve it as much as possible, but aren't able to keep genetic diversity as high as we'd like so their birds might see some negative aspects of inbreeding 5-10 years down the road without new blood. Is that small flock operation worth anything or would it really better to just see the breed fades until it's gone, or needs to be recreated from scratch?

I'm not sure where I fall on this...although I'm leaning towards the side of as many small breeders as possible is ok, because then even if THEIR birds get inbred, there's more people like them they can outcross to and keep the breed at a higher level than the breed having to be recreated from scratch or hatchery stock (on breeds where this is even possible). This happens all the time on popular breeds.

Hmmm....immediate response and thinking bang for buck.....

We have a dear friend around the corner who is able to keep far fewer fowl than us, yet her heart is in good stock, breeding, and breed promotion. Solution? She raises Anconas from our stock. Thus, her flock is sort of a satellite flock to ours and can be a valuable resource for new-yet-related blood and as a disease-predator insurance policy. It's a win-win situation.

I think this is an ideal situation for a smaller establishment that isn't really able to maintain a flock of birds independently and who, moreover, is beginning. By going to an area APA show or two, you can find out who has a strong commitment to a breed in which you might be interested and from whom you might procure some good seed stock. Here you have appropriate beginnings, a mentor, and genetic stability as you move forward.

I think this is the best way to maximize the impact of a smaller operation ergo making it a de facto large operation.

 

[suncatcher]

http://www.albc-usa.org/cpl/wtchlist.html#chickens

So here is a list and the names of the breeds that need help. The question is how will some of these breeds handle your altitude. If I get your question you asked what would do well in the high elevation. Some of these breeds are so worn down they can not even do well in my location and that is sea level. Some are so run down they will take ten to twenty years to improve if not a life time. So many want a challenging breed but when they see what they get they cant be leave the condition of the breed and why no one has kept them up to par like they did years ago.

You will have a fun time figuring out what you want and where to find it. Where to find these rare breeds is the biggest challenge for me.

It will be interesting to see what you come up with down the road.

Bob, Thank you for the links, lots to read. I am still leaning heavy towards Javas as one breed, only because of my little hatchery hen. She is far from SOP, but lays an egg for me every day, and is of good size and weight. I did find a man in KY, John Utter (I think), he does sell Java hatching eggs, and has chicks for pickup, found him on some Heritage page, don't remember which one. He is working to improve them, so I do have one contact, but he doesn't ship chicks, so I either make a road trip or order hatching eggs from KY, and hope I end up with at least a pair or trio!

Barngodess, I have been steering clear of Silkies because I thought they were fragile, we get some cold snowy nights here, I don't heat the coop, and don't plan on it. Will check out the links and look into Silkies too. Thanks!

Yep, the altitude is bad news. Meat birds you have to be very careful at this altitude, they die easily, I don't plan on adding any of those right now, and if I do, I will look at some cross breeds.

 

[BGMatt]

Hmmm....immediate response and thinking bang for buck.....

We have a dear friend around the corner who is able to keep far fewer fowl than us, yet her heart is in good stock, breeding, and breed promotion. Solution? She raises Anconas from our stock. Thus, her flock is sort of a satellite flock to ours and can be a valuable resource for new-yet-related blood and as a disease-predator insurance policy. It's a win-win situation.

I think this is an ideal situation for a smaller establishment that isn't really able to maintain a flock of birds independently and who, moreover, is beginning. By going to an area APA show or two, you can find out who has a strong commitment to a breed in which you might be interested and from whom you might procure some good seed stock. Here you have appropriate beginnings, a mentor, and genetic stability as you move forward.

I think this is the best way to maximize the impact of a smaller operation ergo making it a de facto large operation.

That's true, and I hadn't thought about that aspect of it. Since we were discussing big flocks vs. small flocks I hadn't thought of the combination of the two. The issue of course is that's still geographically centered rather than spanning the country and such of course. But then again I suppose it doesn't have to be. If you sent Anconas or Dorkings to someone in AZ, they could still be a satellite flock, just one not quite as convenient, but without the local mentor factor who knows how it would go...of course that's also less a factor these days with so many electronic forms of communication and such. I was thinking about small breeders more like this example: Say I have a single pen of Redcaps, my friend who lives 30 minutes away has one pen of them as well, a friend a couple hours away has a single pen as well, and so on and so on...there is no large flock, but that still has to be better than nothing yes? This is all theory of course, I truly think every breed has at least one advocate that will maintain a large flock (and hopefully supply many satellite flocks as you mention).

HEChicken: I agree. Especially with open communication between the breeders. A group of knowledgable breeders working together on a small scale even would as YHF points out be a de facto large flock. As far as the record keeping aspect, Robert Blosl has posted in here and on his website (among other sources, but his articles were first I'd heard of it) a rotational system that kept things very easy to maintain records for, and is what I plan on doing as soon as I settle on a breed. (I'm loving the fast development and early personality calmness of the Silver Grey Dorkings I have though, still too young to tell what they'll be like as adults but the size and growth rate is impressive, will see if that continues and if the qualities as adults are there)

 

[Texasmja]

Now that would be something neat!! I may try that introduction Saturday when I can watch everyone CLOSELY. The cockbird is a gentle giant so I wouldn't expect him to be a problem and the sister is just "Ms Laid Back". I'm sooooo hoping her sister will take a notion to brood some of her own. Incubators are great (and a necessity) but nothing beats a good broody

I had a Wyandotte cock raise a total of 50 chicks for me last year (I gave them to him in staggered groups). He was awesome and loved the babies. I left them all with him until I culled through them and sold off what I didn't want.

 

[HEChicken]

Barngodess, I have been steering clear of Silkies because I thought they were fragile, we get some cold snowy nights here, I don't heat the coop, and don't plan on it. Will check out the links and look into Silkies too. Thanks!

The Silkie thread would, I think, have you believe that Silkies are fragile and need special treatment. I have a very mixed flock of turkeys, muscovies, LF, and bantams that include Silkies and Seramas. They all get the exact same treatment and they all thrive. They sleep in the same, unheated, coop at night, even though we regularly get temps in the teens here in winter (and occasionally down to the single digits), and we routinely get triple digit temperatures in the summer. The Silkies have the same access to food and water as the rest of them, don't get heat in winter, or misted in summer, and yet, they seem happy as can be. Mine have to climb in a pop door that is 15" from the floor of the coop. I put in a couple of pavers as steps leading up to it so the ducks could access it more easily, and I expected the Silkies to use those same steps. I'll admit it took them awhile to learn to do this, probably because their vision isn't as good, but they DID learn it and now tuck themselves away in the coop every night, and are among the first out in the morning. In fact, after a recent snowstorm, the Silkies, ducks and turkeys were the only birds outside in the deep snow - the rest of the birds were hiding away in the coop.

BGMatt - thanks for the tip - I'll have to check out Bob's website.

 

[ronott1]

Quote: I heard that the hatching eggs are fragile and hard to hatch too. Someone posted that you had to raise the temp in the incubator to 102 for the first several days. I have hatched them twice for others and they hatched fine both times mixed with other breeds and with now special treatment.

 

[catdaddyfro]

Can anyone explain how our 2-3 day old chick got into a nest box 3' off the ground? I never saw her make the trek or flight or whatever but she was in there each night and out each day. No ramp but there was a spot to perch perhaps half the distance up. Do hen actually pick up chicks on occassion, it would seem they must?

Yes, they can ride piggy back and do often.

Jeff

 

[heritagehabitatfarms]

I have been thinking of and studying about doing a breeding program with the color families and eliminating record keeping almost completely...

if you started with a flock of black birds and then added blue/splash and dun/khaki u could have 3 color lines that all where color coded at hatch and would breed true but could be crossed every few years when needed...

so you could have one big flock with all 5 colors in it (very pretty and would satisfy ppl's need for a verity in there flocks)... then come breeding season pick out your best 2 pairs or trios of blacks add them to breeding pens and set and hatch the eggs all chicks would be pure black and belong to the black family... then pick out your best blue cock and put over a few splash hens and your best splash cock over a few blue hens all the chicks would be blue or splash and belong to the blue/splash family... and finally use your best dun cock over khaki hens and your best khaki cock over dun hens all the chicks would be dun or khaki and belong to your dun/khaki family...

u could leg or wing band every chick with one band to designate which year it was hatched this would be the only record keeping needed... you would not have to band or toe punch or wright down any where what family or line that chicks came from...

this would allow you to greatly simplify your infrastructure needs to... build one large coop and run for your main flock and when u where home let them free range some... then build 1 or 2 breeding pens... look over your flock in the spring and see which color u had the fewest of (like from winter or predator losses) and put them into breeding pens 1st... bred and hatch for say 2 months or even just one month... then let those birds loose and pick your next color to breed from... 1 or 2 months with them and then pick out your birds from your last color family to breed from...

for about 3 years keep breeding with this plan and then one year take a black cock over splash hens= all blue chicks that would belong to the blue/splash family now and would provide for the out-cross needed... the next year put a black cock over khaki hens= all dun chicks belonging to the dun/khaki family and would have new blood... breed for 3 more years then put a black cock over a blue or dun hens= 50% black and 50% colored chicks... those chicks would belong to there respective color families and u would have new blood in your black flock as well...

seems to me this would greatly simplify record keeping which is daunting to some(like me with dyslexia)... but also allow for a large flock with 5 beautiful colors that could all run together except for your individual breeding pens during breeding season... also how many times have you had a predator attack that left u with hens and no cocks or cocks and no hens??? this would allow the breeder great flexibility... if u started with one color (blacks the most common in most breeds) of birds that where better than the others u could breed say black to dun(the rarest in most breeds) for several generations to improve your birds...

so the only problem is the only LF breed i know of with all 3 colors readily available is Sumatra's... the there is several ppl that are adding the dun color to orps and other LF breeds... so unless u wanted to take on the color project yourself this would have to wait a few years until stock is more readily available...

so what are y'all's thought and comments??? good bad ugly idk i can take it... thanks Elias