Bob Blosl's Heritage Large Fowl Thread

[suncatcher]

Hi,
I have long believed that it's not how much stock one has, it's how they are bred. Years ago, when I was studying collie history, I came across an obscure article in a Collie Cub of America Yearbook from the latter 1940's titled, "The Very Small Kennel". It was the genetic history of a legendary collie kennel called Silver-Ho. Now this kennel was only in existence for about 7 years. The owner was a veterinarian. She bred a very limited number of litters. Less than 10. Yet, from her kennel were descended whole families of collies. Some of the most famous studs in the breed were very close-up descendants of her collies. How did this happen? She did not run a hundred collies like the other monied kennels of the day owned by the rich. This lady had an eye for a dog and an intuition of what the breed needed at that moment. She chose collies from various kennels of quality blood and melded the families bloods with an eye to the breeds present and future needs. In other words, it wasn't how many she bred, it was how she bred them. This article changed the way I thought about breeding. I applied her tactics to my very small collie kennel ( now retired) with good success. Collies out of my bitches worked successfully in 9 different venues. One became a premier Ch. stud at another kennel.
Success isn't about numbers. It's about 3 things in breeding philosophy.
1. Understanding the nuances of the breed. ( This is the deepest level of understanding the breed as a whole. It is the result of studyng the history and origins of one's breed and "hands on" explanations with choice examples of the breed from various stocks.).
2. Understanding when and how to apply all breeding plans available.
( This knowledge allows the breeder the greatest flexibility in their creative efforts).
3. Understanding what a breed needs not just now, but in the near future to move it forward.
( this breeder understands the future of the breed and his/her proper stock is thus in demand).

If one has these 3 knowledges and incorporates it with successful poultry management skills, then I believe one has the tools needed for success.
Judge Card illustrates this in his little book on Breeding Laws http://archive.org/details/cu31924003158312 when he explains his breeding chart
which can literally start with just 2 birds. And end up with 2 successful line-bred strains.

I completely agree with the wisdom of having others with one's own strain. Both for their enjoyment and as a protection against flock loss. And how we were taught that the same strain living 500 miles apart could be considered line-bred, or even out-cross stock to one's own flock.
Best Success,
Karen

I do believe you can have Quality, over Quantity, happens all the time in breeding programs, at least with horse breeding. I am new to the chicken breeding, so am not sure. Do you really have to hatch out hundreds of chicks and only keep half a dozen?? If you pick the best two to breed together, could you bypass some of those hundreds of chicks?

Two words jumped out at me with the vet who bred Collies. The word, "intuition", and having an "eye" to be able to spot the best dog. These served her well in breeding the best dogs with a very limited number of litters a year.

With the shared chicken breeding program, I think bottom line all three or four would have to be on the same page as to what they are tryng to accomplish. If one is more interested in color one year, and one in egg production that same year, well, then they will be culling birds for their specific reason. Or does this even matter??? Just curious.

So glad to hear the term "line breeding", as this is something I am vey familar with, and have had good sucess using it in horses, nice to know I can use it with chickens too!!! This is why record keeping and banding or toe punching would be beneficial, as you would have a pedigree so to speak.

So much to learn..........

 

[cbnovick]

Everybody loves chick pics right??

Here's my NH chicks now at 6 weeks. they have been such fun to watch develop thus far...absolutely love their temperament and fast growth/feathering...overall I believe there are going to be some keepers here...there are many unknowns but I will for sure be selecting females with open tails...with improvement toward the SOP in mind there's coloration to consider on the female hackles for black tipping...overall coloration of both sexes (hopefully lighter than most german line birds)...want plenty of type and making sure I watch for the cock's tail angle for correctness. both sexes should be meaty looking which it does not appear to be an issue with this cross thus far...I hope everyone enjoys the pics...i know it's too soon to tell much for sure...

P.S. please excuse the little production leghorn pullet ....she sneaked herself into my lens!!! I suspect she'll earn her keep despite not being bred to the SOP

 

[Lacy Blues]

...I have about three people who are joining me in Mottle Javas. I have one new chick and I pray to GOD its a female. I will keep putting the eggs in the incubator. Then this winter two people gets a pen to take home and work with. One lives five hundred miles from me one is only 50 miles. Next year one or two more will come along. In five years we will have ten buddy's with the breed.

Bob,

I'm just curious... you have all kinds of experience raising poultry yet you have a young one that you cannot tell whether its male or female, and you hope to GOD that its a female. What is it that you see that makes you feel this way? Fast feathering? Something else?

 

[fowlman01]

Just think if you had four small breeders who had say Gray Dockings. The lives five hundred or miles apart. They could exchange bird every five to seven years for fresh blood and at least one of them should improve their bird enough to help the others slowing go from say 93 points average per flock to 94 and maybe one will get to say a score of 95 and be on champion row some where.

We have seen Buckeyes get this way thanks to the hard work of the Buck Eye breeders. Other breeds like Campiness have done it one time a White Face Black Spanish did it in Calif about ten years ago.

I call it Net Working in small number and or buddy system line breeding.

Just think if two of you where partners and each one of you had two family's of birds. You line breed, toe punch and breed and select each year as hard as you can. I no time you could take a rare breed and get it better.

I hope many of you do this.

I have about three people who are joining me in Mottle Javas. I have one new chick and I pray to GOD its a female. I will keep putting the eggs in the incubator. Then this winter two people gets a pen to take home and work with. One lives five hundred miles from me one is only 50 miles. Next year one or two more will come along. In five years we will have ten buddy's with the breed.

That's the plan, it will work. If you have the faith of a Mustard Seed and you plant it will grow. In order to be successful in breeding fancy foul it is no difference you got to put your heart and soul bob


Below is a great example of some very nice handsome birds and my hope is some day this line will be in the hands of four to six people and the buddy system will be used to keep them going for a long long time.

WF Black Spanish are winning the Med Class consistently at the shows out here in Cali this last season along with a Res of Show.

Walt

 

[fowlman01]

I do believe you can have Quality, over Quantity, happens all the time in breeding programs, at least with horse breeding. I am new to the chicken breeding, so am not sure. Do you really have to hatch out hundreds of chicks and only keep half a dozen?? If you pick the best two to breed together, could you bypass some of those hundreds of chicks?

Two words jumped out at me with the vet who bred Collies. The word, "intuition", and having an "eye" to be able to spot the best dog. These served her well in breeding the best dogs with a very limited number of litters a year.

With the shared chicken breeding program, I think bottom line all three or four would have to be on the same page as to what they are tryng to accomplish. If one is more interested in color one year, and one in egg production that same year, well, then they will be culling birds for their specific reason. Or does this even matter??? Just curious.

So glad to hear the term "line breeding", as this is something I am vey familar with, and have had good sucess using it in horses, nice to know I can use it with chickens too!!! This is why record keeping and banding or toe punching would be beneficial, as you would have a pedigree so to speak.

So much to learn..........

Forget most everything you learned about breeding dogs, horses, cats etc when you start breeding chickens. It is not the same. There are far more variables in chickens.

Walt

 

[OSUman]

WF Black Spanish are winning the Med Class consistently at the shows out here in Cali this last season along with a Res of Show.

Walt

 

[BarnGoddess01]

I do believe you can have Quality, over Quantity, happens all the time in breeding programs, at least with horse breeding.   I am new to the chicken breeding, so am not sure.  Do you really have to hatch out hundreds of chicks and only keep half a dozen??   If you pick the best two to breed together, could you bypass some of those hundreds of chicks? 

Two words jumped out at me with the vet who bred Collies.  The word, "intuition", and having an "eye" to be able to spot the best dog.  These served her well in breeding the best dogs with a very limited number of litters a year. 

With the shared chicken breeding program, I think bottom line all three or four would have to be on the same page as to what they are tryng to accomplish.  If one is more interested in color one year, and one in egg production that same year, well, then they will be culling birds for their specific reason.  Or does this even matter???  Just curious. 

So glad to hear the term "line breeding", as this is something I am vey familar with, and have had good sucess using it in horses, nice to know I can use it with chickens too!!!  This is why record keeping and banding or toe punching would be beneficial, as you would have a pedigree so to speak. 

So much to learn..........

Forget most everything you learned about breeding dogs, horses, cats etc when you start breeding chickens. It is not the same. There are far more variables in chickens.

Walt

Can/will you elaborate, Walt? It's sometimes hard to get one's head around the notion that a chicken is more complicated or different to breed than any other creature.

 

[suncatcher]

Quote: Can/will you elaborate, Walt? It sometimes hard to get one's head around the notion that a chicken is more complicated or different to breed than any other creature.
X2

 

[BGMatt]

Forget most everything you learned about breeding dogs, horses, cats etc when you start breeding chickens. It is not the same. There are far more variables in chickens.

Walt

Genetically this shouldn't really be the case though? Dogs and chickens both have the same number of chromosome pairs. Although I suppose other factors like meat quality, and egg production and such would be taken into account where with dogs obviously not. Of course there's also the chicken's ability to have far more offspring than a dog. One of my best friends is a Pharaoh Hound breeder and this is a discussion we've had multiple times and each of them has their own difficulties. As chickens for instance we don't have to do health checks for eyes, hips or any of that. We don't have a registry and pedigrees so if we have to bring in new blood to fix an issue of some sort we can without as much difficulty. So both are challenging, just in different ways.

 

[Yellow House Farm]

Coming up with an answer about quality vs. quantity is not cut and dry. The question would need to be asked for each breed and then for each strain in each breed. Different qualities are harder to get than others. Some breeds are available in high quality that just needs a fresh polishing each season others are devastatingly degraded and can only be improved by hatching in number and culling to a very few---or the advent of a chicken miracle.