Bob Blosl's Heritage Large Fowl Thread

[popcornpuppy]

Hello everybody. I had posted a question on the Orpington thread and someone (Kathyinmo) told me to ask the question here to get help from the trusted experts, Bob or Walt. SO having said that, here is my question for them.

popcornpuppy wrote:
Hi guys. With over 200 hundred pages of lovely Orps to look at, I have not gone through this entire thread. I have a question that I am not sure if it has all ready been asked, so forgive me if it has.

I have to cull excess roos tomorrow and I have a tough choice. Both boys are 8 months old. One has a not so great comb---3 points BUT he has that lovely "U" shape that has been referred to on this thread in the past.

The other is a monster. He looks like a bowling ball with feathers, has a nice 5 point comb but no pronounced "U" shape.

So is it better to keep the one with the proper body shape or the one with the better size? Wich one is harder to get----shape or size?

These boys are from C. Moore lines and I want to do what is best to keep the integrity of line. This is my first go with Orps so I am still learning. Any advice would be helpful.



I also don't have any pics to post as the sun has set in my local area and the birds are in bed. Sorry.

 

[Robert Blosl]

Need to see the pictures but on another thread a person asked a question much like this. My friend told him body type is more important than head points. Many times you mate the male with the best body type to a female with good body type and a good comb. She will help compensate for his fault. You have a good strain of Orpingtons there are many generations of excellent birds in the gene pool or your line. You must faith that these old ansesters will come to your aid to provide you with birds with good combs. Thats the way I look at it. I remember 22 years ago I said the same thing to a fellow he told me do not worry about combs you can improve them in three years. He was right. Look forward to your pictures and Walt can come in and maybe Bill from New York and help you. bob

 

[popcornpuppy]

Quote:
Thank you for chiming in on my question Bob. I do appreciate it. I will do my best to take some pics during the daylight hours of the birds in question.

The reason why I am sooo confused is because of something I read earlier in the day. This is an excerpt from The People's Practical Poultry Book written by W.M. Lewis In 1871 or sometime around that year.



INFLUENCE UPON THE FANCY POINTS.
" The cock has the most influence upon the fancy points, while the hen
has most upon the form and size. If more attention were paid to the shape
and straightness of the comb of the cock, we should see less of those grave
defects which so frequently mar whole pens. I have seen magnificent birds
with such crooked and fungus-like combs as would almost disqualify them in
my opinion. Judges have been too liberal with these defects. It is quite
time such liberality was stopped. Crooked combs should be bred out and
not tolerated. The comb is one of the most prominent characteristics of
the bird, and almost the first object which meets the eye. It touches our
sense of the beautiful immediately to see a small head and straight comb,
and docile look. And the head of a Brahma fowl should possess these qualifications
; too much importance should not be given to breeding for weight
or largeness of carcass, over other qualifications. I admire in the Brahma
fowl a large frame, of symmetrical proportions and corresponding weight;
but a fattened fowl is only fit for the table. I should rather breed from a
small cock with a perfect comb than a large one with a crooked comb. A
lively cock, mated with large hens, is preferable to a sluggish cock and small
hens."




I know the author is talking about Brahmas and I am asking about Orpingtons, but do you think this advice from this author is out of date and posible incorrect? I know the experts here on BYC say by todays standards that body is MOST important. That's why I am confussed.

 

[NYREDS]

I have to cull excess roos tomorrow and I have a tough choice. Both boys are 8 months old. One has a not so great comb---3 points BUT he has that lovely "U" shape that has been referred to on this thread in the past.

The other is a monster. He looks like a bowling ball with feathers, has a nice 5 point comb but no pronounced "U" shape.

So is it better to keep the one with the proper body shape or the one with the better size? Wich one is harder to get----shape or size?

Maybe this will help a little. The comb is worth 5 points. Weight or size 4 [within Standard limits]. Everthing else that comprises type is worth the othe 91 points.
Look at it this way. A nice big Orpington with a beautiful 5 point comb & a Plymouth Rock body isn't worth much.
As Bob pointed out, as defects go, the comb is among the easiest to fix. Size also can usually addressed by using appropriately sized breeding counterparts. It's how Bob made his Red Bantams.
It may take more than one year & one mating to achieve your desired results.
I also have to say a U-Shaped bird &/or a Bowling Ball With Feathers sounds more like a British Orpington than it does an American one.

PS-Hey Kathy, what am I chopped liver?

 

[popcornpuppy]

Quote:
Maybe this will help a little. The comb is worth 5 points. Weight or size 4 [within Standard limits]. Everthing else that comprises type is worth the othe 91 points.
Look at it this way. A nice big Orpington with a beautiful 5 point comb & a Plymouth Rock body isn't worth much.
As Bob pointed out, as defects go, the comb is among the easiest to fix. Size also can usually addressed by using appropriately sized breeding counterparts. It's how Bob made his Red Bantams.
It may take more than one year & one mating to achieve your desired results.
I also have to say a U-Shaped bird &/or a Bowling Ball With Feathers sounds more like a British Orpington than it does an American one.

PS-Hey Kathy, what am I chopped liver?

I just want to say in Kathy's defense that I do think she included you in her suggested list of experts. So the one at fault is me

for not listing the experts properly and giving credit to those who we love and trust as experts


Thank you Mr. NYReds for the input. I need all the help I can get

 

[kathyinmo]

Quote:
I just want to say in Kathy's defense that I do think she included you in her suggested list of experts. So the one at fault is me

for not listing the experts properly and giving credit to those who we love and trust as experts

Thank you Mr. NYReds for the input. I need all the help I can get

Yes I did! I said Bill, Walt, and Bob!

 

[NYREDS]

Quote:
I just want to say in Kathy's defense that I do think she included you in her suggested list of experts. So the one at fault is me

for not listing the experts properly and giving credit to those who we love and trust as experts

Thank you Mr. NYReds for the input. I need all the help I can get

Yes I did! I said Bill, Walt, and Bob!

Damn, thought I had ya.

 

[lildinkem]

I know to not worry about having my first few generations to be perfect. popcornpuppy here is an example of what you say you have. Here is not a perfect hen. but she does have your lines you say you have. This hen I hatched from eggs sent to me by the person who set me up with my Black orp flock last spring. Here you will not see a "U" in the body but in the tail's shape as seen from behind. I think that is the "U" you are reffering too. There are some traits that need to be tweeked. BUT, the type and size is what you want to achieve first. The breeder I got my Blacks from has a saying:
"you first need to build the house THEN paint it".
Another words, worry about building a great type bird first and not worry about the comb.
IF your cockerels have this type and look for the bigger cockerel, keep him and use him.

Another way to assure you are utilizing the best bird is to look how wide the tail is. When you see what is called a pinch tail, that means you have a narrow bird and do not use.
Here is the same Black hen original to the same lines you say you have popcornpuppy. A nice wide tail that looks like a "U" from behind. She is fresh outta molt and her feathers are still filling in.

 

[kathyinmo]

Quote:
Yes I did! I said Bill, Walt, and Bob!

Damn, thought I had ya.

Ya have to put a space between those letters to make that work ....

Or say, daahhhhaaammm ......

I have a question ....... about breeding.
Is it recommended to keep your flock closed, or to add new blood? I read about Marans really taking a step back when they add in another line. Is that true in other breeds, too?

 

[jenjscott]

Kathy, bringing in new blood is always chancy. You never now what unwanted characteristic might crop out due to the combination of old and new genes. Most like to keep things closed and line breed, spiral breed, or some version of that once they have a good line established, outbreeding only if there is a desired characteristic that just is not present in their flock, or if fertility or other problem comes up. HOWEVER, that being said, there is also the occasional outstanding results that may crop up as the result of a very compatible outcrossing. You must keep the original flock intact, in case the crossing does not bring what you want, and not be afraid to scrap the whole project if it doesn't work out and go back to the original flock and start over. Keeping a line closed does no good at all if you don't have the basic desired characteristics in the genes.