Bob Blosl's Heritage Large Fowl Thread

[HallFamilyFarm]

This thread always has such wonderful and enlightening discussions.

However, some newbies may not understand all the terms. When folks post the term SOP, they mean the American Standard of Perfection published by the American Poultry Association. The SOP is revised about once every 10 years. Walt, aka fowlman01, is chairperson for the Standards Committee.

You can buy your own copy of the SOP at http://www.amerpoultryassn.com/APA_ShoppingMall3.htm

The New 2010 Standard of Perfection
The new books are in and are shipping


Regular 2010 Edition Price $59.00

Also available from the American Poultry Association:

Living with Chickens
ON SALE • SUPER LOW PRICE
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By Jay Rossier. soft cover 2004 edition, 203 pp., Color photos throughout. Details on choosing the best backyard birds, building coops, tips on hatching eggs, keeping birds healthy, grains, raising contented chicks Price $15.00

American Poultry Association – SHOWMANSHIP MANUAL (Organizers and Judges)
This booklet is the manual for the organizer; the judge intended to offer guidelines for the initiation and development of youth showmanship activities. Included are exhibitor showmanship steps, a variety of scorecards, nomenclature of chickens, combtypes and more Price $6.00

Old English Game Bantams
Written by Dave B. Sherrill, Jr., Poultry Judge and Master Breeder of OEGB. This book contains the history of the breed, conditioning, training, and breeding specific varieties. Price: $9.00

The Rosecomb Bantam

This comprehensive 39-page study of the Rosecomb Bantam was edited and published by the American Poultry Association. Articles and photographs are incorporated in the study of this breed with helpful articles on hatching and raising, improving your stock and more. Price: $9.00

Modern Games
Written by John S. Garrett, Licensed Judge of both the American Poultry Association and the American Bantam Association, past President of the APA and Director of the ABA. Mr. Garrett has raised Modern Game Bantams since 1948. This 35-page book contains the history of Modern Games, description of the proper type, description of color patterns, setting up breed pens, conditioning, training for the showroomand more. Price: $9.00

American Poultry Association “STANDARD ILLUSTRATIONS”
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Beginners Guide to Raising and Showing Chickens DVD
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APA Sew On Patch $ 6.50

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[Robert Blosl]

Walt I guess I am a Poultry Snob as when people ask me about Delawares I think of Kathy and her project. That is why I say be patient she is going to most likely get them better than the originator himself in the 1950s who knows she may produce a bird I would think a female that will be on Champion Row some day. The Buck Eye people did in in about 7 years. The black Java folks if they breed them the way I told them to might do it also in 5 to 7 seven years. The picture of the barred rocks in this old book is pretty and someone said they would like to breed their birds to this old look and I say why.The had problems back then with these high tail birds and that is why the Plymouth Rock Club which I was once Sectary got together with Mr. Shilling and told him they would like the top line to be what we have today. They then went in front of the APA convention committee with a group with a leader like Walt in charge and asked to make the changes. The APA committe proposed this to the big meeting they had and the members agreed and then in the next Standard the current picture of the Plymouth Rocks in Black and White was printed and that is what we all go by. Like I have said I dont breed top lines on my large fowl rocks to look like Langshangs. I try to even have the top line five degrees lower on my pullets and cockerels as when they become cock birds and hens the molt back on the correct lift. I am picky, but I am a Poultry Snob like Walt said. That is good. Someone has to put their a visions to work to get good strain that has correct top lines and round full breast on their birds.

In regards to Barred Rock Large Fowl today. I am falling in love with a strain from Ohio owned by Craig Shaffer. His females have the correct tails that produce males with correct tails which is a fault on most strains that I have seen. There is a fellow who I helped get started in North Carolina named Jamie Duck worth who uses the old Hogan method of breeding and his males have some great tails he is on his fourth year of breeding. He is one of the best students of the Standard I have seen in many years. The standard is like a blue print for a carpenter who is is building a new house. A good carpenter follows the blue prints to the letter and when done its done right. Excellent work on this thread folks this is why its still going and very popular. I want to also tell some of you new folks no one is twisting your arm to breed to the Staandard or to have chickens that are like the pictures you see in catalogs. Most people do not have the right stuff to make it past three years in the first place with standard fowl. We try to help them but many are called but few are chosen as Mr. Sturgeon once said. bob

 

[aveca]

i do have to say in defense of the old books thou...if you actually read them...there is invaluable information on the hows and whys and in depth color matings..i certianly would not use the poisons they used back then to treat lice ect...but i seldome if ever see an orp today as typy as the ermin orp picture in the standard bred orpington..those old books are gems...outside of ornamentals, the chicken is meant as a food product..and was and should still be judged as such...in the 1940s and 50s there were anywhere from 50 to 100 plus australorps in a class...now your lucky to see 5 - 15. things evolve always will styles and fads change, sometimes for the better sometimes not..but you cant know where your going if you dont know where youve been..i highly recomend those dusty old books..absolute treasures..it guages to where we have evolved..thou today we dont seem to have any good answers as to why we went certian way..they were the builfing blocks of all of todays birds...if it wasnt for a scant handful of people who kept a very old line of good australorps going, there would be nothing more than hatchery re-creations of the origional, americas industrial revolution moved everyone off the farm and into the factory..many great breeds were lost to time..while australia kept evolving their aussies, ours fell into near extinction..all of us who work together on them find we are forced to add hatchery recreations at times..and we do find some gems time to tine, but let me tell you bout the probkems..combs with about 17 points, pidgion toes, you name it...its a real struggle..there is not even a club for them any more, there was a livley club many years ago.australians added croad langshan more orpington, ever vigilant to keep the big roud dark eye. we have produced birds that look like they are looking at you backward..so up hill climb.

they were then and now supposed to have a longer elegant neck, curve from nose to tail, knows as the great bird of curves..round dark eye, ect...ect...we just keep struggleing along.
ra
y connor , 17 time national champion australia wrote a great book called the australorp..both beginner and expert alike can take away from it, so i do read the new books too.

 

[catdaddyfro]

I quoted cubalaya's post. I was referring to the hatcheries mentioned. I haven't seen anything noteworthy from them and they would not be my choice for obtaining Dels....but I'm a poultry snob. If I were looking for Dels I would be talking to Kathy B.

Walt

Ok thats they way I took it anyway but just being clear and I agree with you on the obtaining of good stock get them from her. I have 3 dels 1 cockerel and 2 pullets they are much much different than my (ideal) Del stock I have now and my previous stock from (privett) I too have had some from a (breeder so to say) some were good, some not so much. I have an older male he's good, then his brother looks just like any other run-of-the-mill Del patterned /colored production type chicken. (all have the same body style just a different paint job)

thanks for the clarification I totally agree with you on that one.

Jeff

 

[DMRippy]

Was it this one Walt?

http://archive.org/details/plymouthrockstan00amer

and this one

http://archive.org/details/wyandottestandar00nour

Both are EXCELLENT books, great info and illustrations.

They have some great books online at that site.

 

[fowlman01]

Was it this one Walt?

http://archive.org/details/plymouthrockstan00amer

and this one

http://archive.org/details/wyandottestandar00nour

Both are EXCELLENT books, great info and illustrations.

They have some great books online at that site.

Thats them. Even if you don't have these breeds these books are very informative. Pages 190-191 of the Rock book shows the development of the barred rock. Today's barred Rocks are better birds in every respect.

Walt

 

[cubalaya]

Ok thats they way I took it anyway but just being clear and I agree with you on the obtaining of good stock get them from her. I have 3 dels 1 cockerel and 2 pullets they are much much different than my (ideal) Del stock I have now and my previous stock from (privett) I too have had some from a (breeder so to say) some were good, some not so much. I have an older male he's good, then his brother looks just like any other run-of-the-mill Del patterned /colored production type chicken. (all have the same body style just a different paint job)

thanks for the clarification I totally agree with you on that one.

Jeff

the sources that i quoted were far better than hatchery quality. ideal and privett are hatchery and i would not consider them heritage. didn't beth holmes birds win the crossroads show last year? paul harter's dels are no good? not sure on the sandhill birds because i don't have any dels from them. i am not breeding to show. i want a bird that looks like the standard delaware is supposed to, can be used as a meat bird, and lays a good amount of jumbo brown eggs. when i asked bob blosl a couple of years ago where to get some heritage delawares, he said to make my own from barred rocks and new hampshires just like kathy is doing. i didn't have time or money for all that. i knew there had to be some old strains of good dels out there. so i went another direction and so far am pleased with the results. will continue with my plans and keep looking at pics of kathy's birds.

 

[ashandvine]

I'm considering going several routes which is going to be a lot of work. I'm seeing characteristics coming up in my chicks that resemble some of the characteristics that I have found documented in some of these old books and I kinda would like to have a group that actually resembles those old descriptions even if they aren't the standard for today's birds.

Yes, I think you and I both know, as others do, that many of the BYCs are not up to the same standards as before and that opinion was best given clout by outlining the difference between layers/friers and dual in an earlier post. Chickens seem to be the new purse-pet. Show birds are... another thing IMO. People have show dogs and show horses and they just aren't looked at like dogs or horses on the farm. IMO again.

I am sorry to see that Houdans are not considered one of the birds who have improved over time. I read that they were considered dual purpose and hope so as I have a few growing out. They came from a breeder and not a feed store so I am crossing my fingers. It would be nice to see Cochins like they used to be- huge! Dual purpose birds who really were dual purpose wouldn't make the hatcheries as much money.

Goodluck with your Javas. I'd like to see some more pictures.

 

[fowlman01]

Yes, I think you and I both know, as others do, that many of the BYCs are not up to the same standards as before and that opinion was best given clout by outlining the difference between layers/friers and dual in an earlier post. Chickens seem to be the new purse-pet. Show birds are... another thing IMO. People have show dogs and show horses and they just aren't looked at like dogs or horses on the farm. IMO again.

I am sorry to see that Houdans are not considered one of the birds who have improved over time. I read that they were considered dual purpose and hope so as I have a few growing out. They came from a breeder and not a feed store so I am crossing my fingers. It would be nice to see Cochins like they used to be- huge! Dual purpose birds who really were dual purpose wouldn't make the hatcheries as much money.

Goodluck with your Javas. I'd like to see some more pictures.

This is how Houdans used to look. Maybe there are some around, but I go to lots of shows all over the US and I don't see any like this.



Walt

 

[catdaddyfro]

the sources that i quoted were far better than hatchery quality. ideal and privett are hatchery and i would not consider them heritage. didn't beth holmes birds win the crossroads show last year? paul harter's dels are no good? not sure on the sandhill birds because i don't have any dels from them. i am not breeding to show. i want a bird that looks like the standard delaware is supposed to, can be used as a meat bird, and lays a good amount of jumbo brown eggs. when i asked bob blosl a couple of years ago where to get some heritage delawares, he said to make my own from barred rocks and new hampshires just like kathy is doing. i didn't have time or money for all that. i knew there had to be some old strains of good dels out there. so i went another direction and so far am pleased with the results. will continue with my plans and keep looking at pics of kathy's birds.

Mrs. Beth has most of Mrs. Kathy's old original Delaware stock. I have seen Sandhills and Harters both. I don't see a whole lot of differences in them than the ones I have from Ideal, or my previous Privitt ones (non heritage production types) or even the ones me and brother spent good monies on that were (supposed to be) heritage good quality birds. Most all of them all have the same problems that need addressing: High and/or pinched tails, no tail-black in the females, too much(non barring) in the males, Brassines or red bleed through,columbian pattern, wrong feet color ranging from pale(pink-white) to green ect... I think all this is a by product of MASS production and not good stern diligent breeding practices, just make something that resembles a Delaware color pattern and send it out the door for more money. This is why Mrs. Kathy is making her new strain of Delawares to get away from all this mixed up mess that is infilterated in these birds. I too have the same project I will start this fall. I have the same stock Mrs. Kathy is using as it is straight from her breed pens. I will be making my own rendition of Delawares and will breed them to the standard word for word and also will have much help from some good resources too go along with my endeavours.

Not holding anything against any of the ones you mentioned priorly(cubalya) but I can't use up more time trying to correct them or they may be so mixed up it is impossible to correct them. I'm sure these new strains of Dels can and will be better than the originals too. IMHO

Jeff