Bob Blosl's Heritage Large Fowl Thread

[3riverschick]

Since this is the Heritage Poultry forum and seemingly has discussions on some of our oldest American breeds if chickens, I am wondering what the thoughts are of the group. First of all, remember that all breeds of chickens, with the exception of 'actual' Red Jungle fowl, are the result of crossing of other breeds of chickens to create a new breed. So knowing that their really isn't any 'pure breed' of chicken amongst our recognized APA breeds, what does everyone here think about out crossing to other breeds of chickens in order to strengthen a breed with certain desired traits?

Wait a minute. I think the meaning of "pure-bred" has been misunderstood. Let's start with the dictonary definition:
Merriam-Webster :

pure·bred adjective \-ˈbred, -ˌbred\
Definition of PUREBRED
: bred from members of a recognized breed, strain, or kind without admixture of other blood over many generations
— pure·bred \-ˌbred\ noun

"Purebred" recognizes that the foundation needn't be pure itself. It does , however, demand that the creature defined be bred
without addition of foreign blood for a long time. So the fact that the foundation may have been mongrel is irrelevent.
Consequently, any purebred creature that is given an infusion of foreign blood is no longer purebred.
-------------------------------------------------------------

First Known Use of PUREBRED
1852
This date is circa the beginning of the public "attention to/passion for" purebred animal breeding. A quality book on this subject:
"Bred for Perfection: Shorthorn Cattle, Collies, and Arabian Horses since 1800"
By Margaret E. Derry
http://tinyurl.com/bt7gf2d

Related to PUREBRED
Synonyms: blooded, full-blood, full-blooded, pedigreed (or pedigree), pure-blooded (or pure-blood), thoroughbred
Antonyms: hybrid, mixed, mongrel
Related Words: well-bred; inbred
Near Antonyms: crossbred, crossed, half-blood (or half-blooded), half-bred,
hybridized, interbred, outcrossed
pure·bred adjective \-ˈbred\ (Medical Dictionary)
Medical Definition of PUREBRED
: bred from members of a recognized breed, strain, or kind without outbreeding over many generations
--------------------------------------------------
I know, and have read, that the argument quoted above for rationalizing out-crossing and cross-breeding has been made since the early part of last century. However, based on the definition of the word "purebred" and the era behind the creation of the word, It's my opinion that the argument above is just a misconstruing of true meaning to rationalize intended cross and out-breeding in the public eye. In other words, if one is going to cross-breed or out-cross to the detriment of the definition of the word purebred... be up front about it and don't misconstrue the word as a lame excuse for one's actions.
Best,
Karen

So when does a mongrelized purebred become a true purebred again? That's a question for another post.

 

[imtrying]

boom.

also, i think i love you.

Wait a minute. I think the meaning of "pure-bred" has been misunderstood. Let's start with the dictonary definition:
Merriam-Webster :

pure·bred adjective \-ˈbred, -ˌbred\
Definition of PUREBRED
: bred from members of a recognized breed, strain, or kind without admixture of other blood over many generations
— pure·bred \-ˌbred\ noun

"Purebred" recognizes that the foundation needn't be pure itself. It does , however, demand that the creature defined be bred
without addition of foreign blood for a long time. So the fact that the foundation may have been mongrel is irrelevent.
Consequently, any purebred creature that is given an infusion of foreign blood is no longer purebred.
-------------------------------------------------------------

First Known Use of PUREBRED
1852
This date is circa the beginning of the public "attention to/passion for" purebred animal breeding. A quality book on this subject:
"Bred for Perfection: Shorthorn Cattle, Collies, and Arabian Horses since 1800"
By Margaret E. Derry
http://tinyurl.com/bt7gf2d

Related to PUREBRED
Synonyms: blooded, full-blood, full-blooded, pedigreed (or pedigree), pure-blooded (or pure-blood), thoroughbred
Antonyms: hybrid, mixed, mongrel
Related Words: well-bred; inbred
Near Antonyms: crossbred, crossed, half-blood (or half-blooded), half-bred,
hybridized, interbred, outcrossed
pure·bred adjective \-ˈbred\ (Medical Dictionary)
Medical Definition of PUREBRED
: bred from members of a recognized breed, strain, or kind without outbreeding over many generations
--------------------------------------------------
I know, and have read, that the argument quoted above for rationalizing out-crossing and cross-breeding has been made since the early part of last century. However, based on the definition of the word "purebred" and the era behind the creation of the word, It's my opinion that the argument above is just a misconstruing of true meaning to rationalize intended cross and out-breeding in the public eye. In other words, if one is going to cross-breed or out-cross to the detriment of the definition of the word purebred... be up front about it and don't misconstrue the word as a lame excuse for one's actions.
Best,
Karen

So when does a mongrelized purebred become a true purebred again? That's a question for another post.

 

[Bentley]

Wait a minute.  I think the meaning of "pure-bred" has been misunderstood. Let's start with the dictonary definition:
[COLOR=763B75]Merriam-Webster :[/COLOR]

pure·bred adjective \-ˈbred, -ˌbred\
[COLOR=0000CD]Definition of PUREBRED[/COLOR]

: bred from members of a recognized breed, strain, or kind without admixture of other blood over many generations

— pure·bred \-ˌbred\ noun

"Purebred" recognizes that the foundation needn't be pure itself. It does , however, demand that the creature defined be bred
without addition of foreign blood for a long time.  So the fact that the foundation may have been mongrel is  irrelevent.
 Consequently, any purebred creature that is given an infusion of foreign blood is no longer purebred.
-------------------------------------------------------------

 
[COLOR=0000CD]First Known Use of PUREBRED[/COLOR]

1852
This date is circa the beginning of the public "attention to/passion for" purebred animal breeding. A quality book on this subject:
"Bred for Perfection: Shorthorn Cattle, Collies, and Arabian Horses since 1800"

By Margaret E. Derry
http://tinyurl.com/bt7gf2d

[COLOR=0000CD]Related to PUREBRED[/COLOR]
[COLOR=006400]Synonyms:[/COLOR] blooded, full-blood, full-blooded, pedigreed (or pedigree), pure-blooded (or pure-blood), thoroughbred
[COLOR=006400]Antonyms:[/COLOR] hybrid, mixed, mongrel
[COLOR=006400]Related Words:[/COLOR] well-bred; inbred
[COLOR=006400]Near Antonyms:[/COLOR] crossbred, crossed, half-blood (or half-blooded), half-bred,

 hybridized, interbred, outcrossed
pure·bred adjective \-ˈbred\   (Medical Dictionary)
[COLOR=0000CD]Medical Definition of PUREBRED[/COLOR]

: bred from members of a recognized breed, strain, or kind without outbreeding over many generations
--------------------------------------------------
I know, and have read, that the argument quoted above for rationalizing out-crossing and cross-breeding has been made since the early part of last century. However, based on the definition of the word "purebred" and the era behind the creation of the word, It's my opinion that the argument above is just a misconstruing of true meaning to rationalize intended cross and out-breeding in the public eye. In other words, if one is going to cross-breed or out-cross to the detriment of the definition of the word purebred... be up front about it and don't misconstrue the word as a lame excuse for one's actions.
 Best,
 Karen

[COLOR=800080]So when does a mongrelized purebred become a true purebred again? That's a question for another post.[/COLOR]

By definition, what is "many generations" that you can't add new genetic diversity. Additionally, what is a "long time" that you can't add foreign blood? I am CERTAIN out crossing occurs way more often than the 'purest' will ever admit. As a matter of fact I know ' self proclaimed purests' that have out crossed to the GREAT benefit to that respective breed. If we are trying to save breeds and make them better and more sustainable, the addition of quality genetics to add hybrid vigor and much needed genetic diversity to sometimes very inbred lines, then this is to the advantage of poultry enthusiast everywhere.

I guess this is just my opinion as I have watched some breeds drift to very poor quality and very poor vigor and therefore their existence as we knew them or read about them becomes questionable. Falling back to the ways of the old breeders that routinely added other breed stock to their lines to improve quality does not seem like a bad decision to make as we strive to save or resurrect old and struggling breeds.

 

[mschlumb]

In my opinion, a mongrelized purebred would become a true purebred once the offspring produced are consistent; in other words having the same type, color, ect, and meet the specifications for the breed standards.

I do believe breeds need to kept as pure as possible, however, i also feel that crossbreeding can be valuable in order to save a breed with a small gene pool. Or to return a breed to its historical, size, shape, or purpose that has been neglected and not properly selected for these traits. As the example with the Andalusians being crossed with Minorcas shows. The undersized Andalusians were returned to their standard size by outcrossing with another breed resulting in birds that better match their standard description and are more reflective of a true Andalusian

I myself have resorted to crossbreeding in order to save a breed. I acquired some black hamburg bantams from a friend one time, but the male had very poor fertility. The birds were old so I felt I had to do something fast. So in order to get some offspring i used this male on some RC black Leghorn bantams and luckily the he did breed and i got a total of 4 offspring. I didnt want to crossbreed but i had no choice because i couldnt find any other bantam black hamburgs out there. Ideally if i had found some other black hamburgs or any other variety of Hamburg at the time i wouldnt have outcrossed with the Leghorns. At least now I have some birds that look like hamburgs to work with in the future.

 

[Bentley]

In my opinion, a mongrelized purebred would become a true purebred once the offspring produced are consistent; in other words having the same type, color, ect, and meet the specifications for the breed standards.

I do believe breeds need to kept as pure as possible, however, i also feel that crossbreeding can be valuable in order to save a breed with a small gene pool. Or to return a breed to its historical, size, shape, or purpose that has been neglected and not properly selected for these traits. As the example with the Andalusians being crossed with Minorcas shows. The undersized Andalusians were returned to their standard size by outcrossing with another breed resulting in birds that better match their standard description and are more reflective of a true Andalusian

Very true. Some breeds have been so neglected for so long outcrossing with similar breeds becomes almost a necessity. And once a breed, or bird type, breeds true (offspring all resemble their parents in size, type and color) they can be considered a breed. All those breeds may not be APA recognized (thank goodness), but hey can be considered a breed nonetheless. Kind of like a Maran?

 

[NanaKat]

Bentley said " By definition, what is "many generations" that you can't add new genetic diversity. Additionally, what is a "long time" that you can't add foreign blood? I am CERTAIN out crossing occurs way more often than the 'purest' will ever admit. As a matter of fact I know ' self proclaimed purests' that have out crossed to the GREAT benefit to that respective breed. If we are trying to save breeds and make them better and more sustainable, the addition of quality genetics to add hybrid vigor and much needed genetic diversity to sometimes very inbred lines, then this is to the advantage of poultry enthusiast everywhere.

I guess this is just my opinion as I have watched some breeds drift to very poor quality and very poor vigor and therefore their existence as we knew them or read about them becomes questionable. Falling back to the ways of the old breeders that routinely added other breed stock to their lines to improve quality does not seem like a bad decision to make as we strive to save or resurrect old and struggling breeds."

As someone who is working on the Birchen in Wyandottes, I am impressed with the work done by KathyinMo in bringing back the Deleware by following the breeding strategies of the original breeders.
There are other breeders who have worked on older breeds and have included outcrossing to strengthen the characteristics of their chosen breed. The birds selected for the outcross do not vary from the standard of the chosen breed characteristics and may have actually been part of the original breeding strategy. It then takes several generations to "cement" the outcross with the chosen breed in order for chicks from that cross actually breed true. Whatever the path chosen, it takes generations and dedication to get a purebred result.

 

[kathyinmo]

I am CERTAIN out crossing occurs way more often than the 'purest' will ever admit. As a matter of fact I know ' self proclaimed purests' that have out crossed to the GREAT benefit to that respective breed.

Maybe I am taking this wrong, but it seems you are upset with 'self proclaimed purests' ???

Falling back to the ways of the old breeders that routinely added other breed stock to their lines to improve quality does not seem like a bad decision to make as we strive to save or resurrect old and struggling breeds.

Is that what they did - the old breeders? I guess I was not aware of that.

Quote:
What breeds "have been so neglected for so long outcrossing with similar breeds becomes almost a necessity?"

And, what is your point with this statement? Am I missing something?
All those breeds may not be APA recognized (thank goodness)

 

[Bentley]

I am not upset with purist at all, I just think they are shortsighted sometimes and maybe making their goal of improving breeds more difficult by refusing to outcrossing with the idea that they would "contaminate the breed" by doing so. I have heard those words used.

What breeds have been neglected? The previous reference to Andalusians is a good one to use here.

My point with the APA not officially recognizing every new 'breed' as it pops up is very good. Their are so many recognized breeds that need dedicated work and attention by breeders we don't need every offshoot breed added to the list. Not trying to pick on any specific 'breed' here but the Showgirls come to mind

 

[kathyinmo]

As someone who is working on the Birchen in Wyandottes, I am impressed with the work done by KathyinMo in bringing back the Delaware by following the breeding strategies of the original breeders.
There are other breeders who have worked on older breeds and have included outcrossing to strengthen the characteristics of their chosen breed. The birds selected for the outcross do not vary from the standard of the chosen breed characteristics and may have actually been part of the original breeding strategy. It then takes several generations to "cement" the outcross with the chosen breed in order for chicks from that cross actually breed true. Whatever the path chosen, it takes generations and dedication to get a purebred result.

Well, ya know..... I searched for good quality Delawares and never could find any. I bought stock from several sources and never was satisfied. I could have messed around with them and improved them, I suppose. The best ones I had, I would have liked to work with, but they had a rare dwarfing gene problem.

When I did finally decide to attempt this project, I contacted 3 genetics experts to ask for guidance (and comparison). The history of the Delaware says George Ellis created the breed from a Barred Rock - New Hampshire mating.... that he got a "sport." Well, the genetics guys told me I would not get anything but barred chicks with that cross if my foundation stock was "pure." Others (*cough* Walt) thought sure I would hatch some sports. I hatched around two hundred chicks from that first mating, and never did get a sport. However, Doug Akers did this cross and he did get Delaware sports. Actually, Doug only hatched a dozen eggs - and got, I quote, "I hatched approx. 12 chicks. Half of them looked exactly like barred rock chicks; I gave them away within a couple of weeks. Five of the chicks were pure white at hatch. There were 3 males and 2 females."

Doug told me he did not know the background of the Barred Rock he used, so it could have been other than pure. George Ellis was a hatchery man. This makes me think that the stock he used to get his "Superman," (his cock bird's name) was not pure. I don't know how hatcheries were back then, and I am just guessing.

So, I guess what I'm saying (what I think anyway), is that purity does make a difference. I am pretty sure that the Barred Rocks I used were pure, and I also believe the New Hampshires were pure. My project has finally resulted in Delawares that do breed true 100% of the time (so far anyway), BUT..... I still have work to do with them. They are not the result of a simple cross. I have hatched hundreds, to keep only a handful. I had only 4 females out of 200 hatched, and one was culled. My F2s consist of 3 females and 3 males. I hatched 100 F3s from cock #1, and plan to hatch about that many from cock #2 and #3 as well. I have culled down to 10 males and 20 females for now (F3s). I will cull more before I pen for F4 matings in the spring. I am just trying to decide which faults to cull for. I'm satisfied with the barn I built, pretty much, now for the paint job......

I had a few "partners," to help out with this project. I wanted to be sure I would have backup, "just in case." Guess what - they all fell through, for one reason or another. I gave away many F1s, just to my partners..... but have yet to see any F2s from them. I hope to begin hatching F4s this spring.

I know why some breeders are reluctant with sharing their stock. Yes, now I know. On one hand, I want to "perfect," these before I release them. On the other hand, I worry that if something did happen here, all this would be lost. Not saying these are super special or anything, but I do think they are the best Delawares I (personally) have had.

 

[call ducks]

Here's my 5 cents.

You never need to out cross to "save" a breed! A very reigours hatching and calling program that focuses on building the important features such as shape, weight, growing times, egg production etc. Is all you need.

Take for example in Canada our light sussex were not worth two cents up untill a few years ago, they were small, lankey, laid few eggs, etc. Than a friend in BC started breeding them. Now they are what a Sussex should be, fast growing, meaty, Decent amount of eggs! It's been a rapid switch considering she only started 2-3 years ago! You can save any breed simply by breeding lots (and i mean lots!) and culling down to your best 25/50 or what ever the ammount is that you want to keep. You do not know how big that small gene pool is until you do this. Just because you think it is small does not mean it is small or unhealthy