Bob Blosl's Heritage Large Fowl Thread

[mschlumb]

Here's my 5 cents.
You never need to out cross to "save" a breed! A very reigours hatching and calling program that focuses on building the important features such as shape, weight, growing times, egg production etc. Is all you need.
Take for example in Canada our light sussex were not worth two cents up untill a few years ago, they were small, lankey, laid few eggs, etc. Than a friend in BC started breeding them. Now they are what a Sussex should be, fast growing, meaty, Decent amount of eggs! It's been a rapid switch considering she only started 2-3 years ago! You can save any breed simply by breeding lots (and i mean lots!) and culling down to your best 25/50 or what ever the ammount is that you want to keep. You do not know how big that small gene pool is until you do this. Just because you think it is small does not mean it is small or unhealthy

In the ideal situation you are right you don't have to outcross to save a breed or variety. But as I said I had no choice! I only had a few old birds to start with with poor fertility. I was incapable of producing lots of offspring to choose from. I had to do something and do it fairly soon. Since I couldnt find any other Hamburgs i opted for the next best thing. I am glad i did too, I now have genetic diversity and I have birds that at least resemble a hamburg. Now I am capable of producing lots of offspring to choose from to refine type, weight, comb, ect, to eventually get back to hamburgs.

 

[gjensen]

"Pure" is once the traits are fixed and the breed/strain breeds true from generation to generation.

We might be suprised to know what has been done within a given strain over time. If our birds breed true, meaning their traits are fixed we wouldn't necessarily know.

Some of our breeds have changed over time. They are not completely what they were in the past. Some for the better, some for the worse.

There is more to our birds than what is on the surface.

I am a purist in a sense that I think that we should protect the integrity of what we have. I am not so much a purist that I think we should rule out an outcross if it becomes necessary. If an important trait or traits is not there it isn't there. For that reason, it would seam as important to preserve individual strains within a breed.

There are some breeds that have decended to a point an outcross might be necessary. There are not any options as far as diffferent strains to go to. I don't know that we can compare one breed to another. You can also breed back to one side to preserve the genetic resource that you do have.

These are just my opinions. I think I could argue this topic from both sides. Different people, different birds, different tastes, different approaches, etc. is what preserves diversity. If we all went the same way, we would all go the wrong way. The proof is in the pudding. The results matter. No one is going to want a bunch of mixed up junk. People are going to want or want to use something that has value or is useful.

 

[thedragonlady]

Well who would do that?????? Any way, ALL APA breeds are the result of crossing different breeds together, every one of them. So who decided that it was 'frowned upon' to recreate old breeds in the same manner they were originally created? Seems to me that that is REALLY 'getting back to the original breeds'. I guess the creativity and ingenuity of the original breed developers is taboo to dabble in anymore?

Why try to re-invent the wheel? Why not just give it whitewalls by improving on it?

 

[FeyRaine]

Call ducks said
"Take for example in Canada our light sussex were not worth two cents up untill a few years ago, they were small, lankey, laid few eggs, etc. Than a friend in BC started breeding them. Now they are what a Sussex should be, fast growing, meaty, Decent amount of eggs! It's been a rapid switch considering she only started 2-3 years ago! You can save any breed simply by breeding lots (and i mean lots!) and culling down to your best 25/50 or what ever the ammount is that you want to keep. You do not know how big that small gene pool is until you do this. Just because you think it is small does not mean it is small or unhealthy"


I'd like to hear more about breeding for the utility aspects (eggs/meat) in these Heritage breeds. Their original utility value as good foragers who would produce eggs/meat was and is a big part of the attraction of these breeds and I haven't seen on this tread much conversation about culling for _these_ traits, but I have seen on a few private websites cautions that a certain breed or strain no longer is a good layer. (One such caution was in reference to a Wyandotte which they were selling hatching eggs as Heritage). I see breeding for body type & color advice, but what are the thoughts of those on this list about for breeding for the productive qualities for which these Heritage breeds where originally so prized?

FeyRaine

 

[catdaddyfro]

Call ducks said
"Take for example in Canada our light sussex were not worth two cents up untill a few years ago, they were small, lankey, laid few eggs, etc. Than a friend in BC started breeding them. Now they are what a Sussex should be, fast growing, meaty, Decent amount of eggs! It's been a rapid switch considering she only started 2-3 years ago! You can save any breed simply by breeding lots (and i mean lots!) and culling down to your best 25/50 or what ever the ammount is that you want to keep. You do not know how big that small gene pool is until you do this. Just because you think it is small does not mean it is small or unhealthy"


I'd like to hear more about breeding for the utility aspects (eggs/meat) in these Heritage breeds. Their original utility value as good foragers who would produce eggs/meat was and is a big part of the attraction of these breeds and I haven't seen on this tread much conversation about culling for _these_ traits, but I have seen on a few private websites cautions that a certain breed or strain no longer is a good layer. (One such caution was in reference to a Wyandotte which they were selling hatching eggs as Heritage). I see breeding for body type & color advice, but what are the thoughts of those on this list about for breeding for the productive qualities for which these Heritage breeds where originally so prized?

FeyRaine

Bob has mentioned it numerous times here and the RIR thread that if you select the earliest maturing males and push for high egg production on the female side then the color and type comes along with the package. Here he is referring to Reds of course. so atleast he does mention egg production too along with type and color, but yeah there IS a LOT of focus on getting the outside looking good in a lot of posts. Its what everybody looks at/sees.

But I believe if you select properly and cull to/for the traits outlined by the Standard for that particular breed, then the production(meat and eggs) should be just what the breed is/was intended for. If some one is hatching eggs from breeders that lay only half of what the breed is supposed to lay yearly then they probly won't be in business too long, as they sure won't make any money selling a whole lot of chicks/birds and too I would imagine the offspring to be somewhat scrubs/or some freakishly looking pseudo version of what they are supposed to be propagating.

Jeff

 

[thedragonlady]

Bob has mentioned it numerous times here and the RIR thread that if you select the earliest maturing males and push for high egg production on the female side then the color and type comes along with the package. Here he is referring to Reds of course. so atleast he does mention egg production too along with type and color, but yeah there IS a LOT of focus on getting the outside looking good in a lot of posts. Its what everybody looks at/sees.

But I believe if you select properly and cull to/for the traits outlined by the Standard for that particular breed, then the production(meat and eggs) should be just what the breed is/was intended for. If some one is hatching eggs from breeders that lay only half of what the breed is supposed to lay yearly then they probly won't be in business too long, as they sure won't make any money selling a whole lot of chicks/birds and too I would imagine the offspring to be somewhat scrubs/or some freakishly looking pseudo version of what they are supposed to be propagating.

Jeff

All my Buff Orps are luckily very good layers, most starting at just shy of 6 months old, my English Orps included. The males DO mature very early too. I am using the English birds to add the deep keel to my buff line, as so many Orps are rather cut away in front. That deep keel on the EOs adds body depth, and wider breast meat , a trait that ought to be maintained, since the Orps are dual purpose birds.

I encourage foraging very early. My 4 week old chicks are generally living outside, and forage with the adults during the day. I think this accomplishes a couple of traits too in addition to simply foraging. These chicks get a tremendous amount of exercise by running and flying about the orchard. Rather than growing up as mushy cooped birds, these chicks develop the muscles needed to keep their huge frames tight. They go through a lot of feed with this method in growing up, but the results are worth it in both laying , and meat production. The usual problem with over fat Orps carrying a lot of internal body fat that impedes laying is not present here.

 

[call ducks]

Here's my 5 cents.

You never need to out cross to "save" a breed! A very reigours hatching and calling program that focuses on building the important features such as shape, weight, growing times, egg production etc. Is all you need.

Take for example in Canada our light sussex were not worth two cents up untill a few years ago, they were small, lankey, laid few eggs, etc. Than a friend in BC started breeding them. Now they are what a Sussex should be, fast growing, meaty, Decent amount of eggs! It's been a rapid switch considering she only started 2-3 years ago! You can save any breed simply by breeding lots (and i mean lots!) and culling down to your best 25/50 or what ever the ammount is that you want to keep. You do not know how big that small gene pool is until you do this. Just because you think it is small does not mean it is small or unhealthy

In the ideal situation you are right you don't have to outcross to save a breed or variety. But as I said I had no choice! I only had a few old birds to start with with poor fertility. I was incapable of producing lots of offspring to choose from. I had to do something and do it fairly soon. Since I couldnt find any other Hamburgs i opted  for the next best thing. I am glad i did too, I now have genetic diversity and I have birds that at least resemble a hamburg. Now I am capable of producing lots of offspring to choose from to refine type, weight, comb, ect, to eventually get back to hamburgs.

Of Course you had a choice! I've done it with Hungrain Yellows. Try one line in the world! It's going to take more time to get where i want to with them.

I feel sorry for these people who have bought into the newly imported breeds.They well crash. Bred for number's not genetic safety

 

[Bentley]

Here's my 5 cents.
You never need to out cross to "save" a breed! A very reigours hatching and calling program that focuses on building the important features such as shape, weight, growing times, egg production etc. Is all you need.
Take for example in Canada our light sussex were not worth two cents up untill a few years ago, they were small, lankey, laid few eggs, etc. Than a friend in BC started breeding them. Now they are what a Sussex should be, fast growing, meaty, Decent amount of eggs! It's been a rapid switch considering she only started 2-3 years ago! You can save any breed simply by breeding lots (and i mean lots!) and culling down to your best 25/50 or what ever the ammount is that you want to keep. You do not know how big that small gene pool is until you do this. Just because you think it is small does not mean it is small or unhealthy

While this philosophy is great in theory, in reality there are many times this isn't true. Ask any educated and trained real geneticist and they will tell you you HAVE TO have genetic diversity to make genetic progress. If a breed has become so homogeneous in its genetic make up, which can easily happen after years and years of in breeding, then you lose genetic diversity. Nothing necessarily wrong with in breeding to refine a breed and 'lock in' the desired traits. The problem is that if a population has become this homogeneous in genetic make up then it also lacks genetic diversity. This means you can breed hundreds upon hundreds, even thousands, of the birds and get virtually the same offspring time and time again, all of which resemble the parents that might lack a desired trait. This is the goal of commercial geneticists, to produce virtually the same chicken by the thousands. This is when outcrossing becomes necessary.

To set the record straight, I am not promoting free breeding and freely outcrossing all breeds just for the heck of it. That is just plain stupid because then you can possibly open 'pandora a box' of genetics and get all kinds if unknown foreseen progeny. But, when carefully planned and calculated, outcrossing can be very beneficial.

 

[normanack]

Bentley, to what kind of animal does the eye in your avatar belong?

 

[buffalogal]

I may be wrong (and I frequently am), but I have the impression that someone has been crossbreeding their birds to get a close approximation of whatever, and is now miffed to find out that when they hear about the outcrossing to another breed (or some unrecognized breeds) that serious breeders consider them to be mutts, no matter how purty they are at first glance.

I have found that if you work with a breed long enough, no matter how wonderful the birfds were you started with, no matter how carefully you select your breeders, eventually you WILL see things start to go 'backwards'. That my friend is the nature of the game. The thing to do when your otherwise nearperfect line starts getting too small (or too large, or not laying, or whatever) is NOT to outcross to something else, it's to hold off focusing on the comb or the color or whatever and concentrate on breeding to correct that new (really old) fault. If the goalpost has moved, you don't rush off to the sidelines for a tennis racket, you adjust the game plan. That is what keeps the game interesting, and I believe it's why people pick a breed and stay with it for decades. Works for me anyway.