Bob Blosl's Heritage Large Fowl Thread

[Lacy Blues]

I agree, Fey. I would like to hear more on utility as an important aspect of a breeding program. I was looking at Andalusians and have read in a number of places that they lay only around 200 eggs a year. That doesn't sound like the bird I read about in the book by "Silver Dun" in the 1890's. Seemed like a lot more productive breed back then. What is the place of utility and productivity in current breeding programs?

Unless I'm mistaken, you're asking about Andalusians and productivity today? In my breeding program I am selecting not only for size but for abdominal capacity in both male and female. Time will tell the results. I have the book "Call of the Hen" and it is an excellent guide in this area.

marengoite, I have been quietly watching this debate , and I do not see the point of your argument , all a " pure breed " is is a bird that breeds true. I have to ask do you exhibit birds ? if you do , how well are u doing , or have you notices that your lines keep getting smaller or losing some of the type. How do you think exhibitors achieve winning stock , THEY OUTCROSS lmao , you can introduce a completly different breed and achieve the chang u need to win , you may throw a few "sports" (a good example) say a splash when producing blues ...you mentioned blue andilusion ...do you know if you dont introduce a black they will lose thier lacing? any way just making a point

It is true that you can lose the lacing by not using a black in your breeding pen but a black andalusian used on a splash or blue andalusian is not an outcross. They are all the same breed, just different varieties. The black and splash are not recognized by the APA which is a shame. All three varieties are required to have a correct blue ground and lacing. If they were recognized them perhaps the Andalusian wouldn't be in the trouble it is in because you have to have all three but can only show one? Doesn't make sense to me. Blacks and splashes of a LOT of other breeds are recognized but for the Andalusian, I fear it is too late and the other varieties will never be approved because there are not enough people willing to take on a "high spirited" bird like this to try and get enough of them shown at a single event and being required to have them for x amount of years in the first place. You need 3 times the number of birds you can show, in order to raise Andalusians... IF you want to show them (or not for that matter) if you want them to be correct.

 

[buffalogal]

marengoite, I have been quietly watching this debate , and I do not see the point of your argument , all a " pure breed " is is a bird that breeds true. I have to ask do you exhibit birds ? if you do , how well are u doing , or have you notices that your lines keep getting smaller or losing some of the type. How do you think exhibitors achieve winning stock , THEY OUTCROSS lmao , you can introduce a completly different breed and achieve the chang u need to win , you may throw a few "sports" (a good example) say a splash when producing blues ...you mentioned blue andilusion ...do you know if you dont introduce a black they will lose thier lacing? any way just making a point

"Outcrossing" within the breed, selecting birds from some else's line that is strong in a quality that your birds need improvement in, I can see that. (I've done that) But outcrossing to a different breed because you want to take a short cut, or worse, "outcrossing" to something that isn't even a breed at all, just a bird that just so happens to look kinda, sorta like what you want your birds to look like? Nah.

I'll be honest, I'm not a big time exhibitor. I hadn't shown my stock in years and then it was more about getting some feedback from others than to win. *I* thought they were nice, but it's always good to get a second opinion, you know? There is so much more to breeding heritage poultry than just winning in the show room. truth be told, if a person thinks they "need' to outcross to another breed because they 'need' to win, I hope they stay far, far away from any of the breeds that *I* love.

 

[Marengoite]

marengoite, I have been quietly watching this debate , and I do not see the point of your argument , all a " pure breed " is is a bird that breeds true. I have to ask do you exhibit birds ? if you do , how well are u doing , or have you notices that your lines keep getting smaller or losing some of the type. How do you think exhibitors achieve winning stock , THEY OUTCROSS lmao , you can introduce a completly different breed and achieve the chang u need to win , you may throw a few "sports" (a good example) say a splash when producing blues ...you mentioned blue andilusion ...do you know if you dont introduce a black they will lose thier lacing? any way just making a point

Full disclosure: I'm new to chickens this year and poultry for only the last four years. My previous experience before that has been in gun dogs, tropical fish, and saving my own garden seeds. So I come into this with experience outside the poultry world but at the same time familiar with the work of Punnett (what biology teacher isn't?).

As for Andalusians, how is it an "outcross" if blue, black, and splash are all produced in the same clutch of eggs, usually in Mendelian proportions? Which leads to my question on what is meant by outcrossing. If a black Andalusian cock is bred to his spalsh daughter to throw all blue chicks, is this an outcross? Or is this linebreeding? You tell me. I'm not the expert.

 

[Hangtown Farms]

Bentley, to what kind of animal does the eye in your avatar belong?

looks like a African Grey Parrot

 

[Yard full o' rocks]

Full disclosure: I'm new to chickens this year and poultry for only the last four years. My previous experience before that has been in gun dogs, tropical fish, and saving my own garden seeds. So I come into this with experience outside the poultry world but at the same time familiar with the work of Punnett (what biology teacher isn't?).

As for Andalusians, how is it an "outcross" if blue, black, and splash are all produced in the same clutch of eggs, usually in Mendelian proportions? Which leads to my question on what is meant by outcrossing. If a black Andalusian cock is bred to his spalsh daughter to throw all blue chicks, is this an outcross? Or is this linebreeding? You tell me. I'm not the expert.

What you are describing is linebreeding (i.e inbreeding), certainly not an outcross

 

[call ducks]

Here's my 5 cents.
You never need to out cross to "save" a breed! A very reigours hatching and calling program that focuses on building the important features such as shape, weight, growing times, egg production etc. Is all you need.
Take for example in Canada our light sussex were not worth two cents up untill a few years ago, they were small, lankey, laid few eggs, etc. Than a friend in BC started breeding them. Now they are what a Sussex should be, fast growing, meaty, Decent amount of eggs! It's been a rapid switch considering she only started 2-3 years ago! You can save any breed simply by breeding lots (and i mean lots!) and culling down to your best 25/50 or what ever the ammount is that you want to keep. You do not know how big that small gene pool is until you do this. Just because you think it is small does not mean it is small or unhealthy

While this philosophy is great in theory, in reality there are many times this isn't true. Ask any educated and trained real geneticist and they will tell you you HAVE TO have genetic diversity to make genetic progress. If a breed has become so homogeneous in its genetic make up, which can easily happen after years and years of in breeding, then you lose genetic diversity. Nothing necessarily wrong with in breeding to refine a breed and 'lock in' the desired traits. The problem is that if a population has become this homogeneous in genetic make up then it also lacks genetic diversity. This means you can breed hundreds upon hundreds, even thousands, of the birds and get virtually the same offspring time and time again, all of which resemble the parents that might lack a desired trait. This is the goal of commercial geneticists, to produce virtually the same chicken by the thousands. This is when outcrossing becomes necessary.

To set the record straight, I am not promoting free breeding and freely outcrossing all breeds just for the heck of it. That is just plain stupid because then you can possibly open 'pandora a box' of genetics and get all kinds if unknown foreseen progeny. But, when carefully planned and calculated, outcrossing can be very beneficial.

You can start with 2 birds and have as much genetic veration, as if you would have out crossed. You do not need to start with this large and vast amount of diversity. Sure the more you have the better! But that does not mean you can not get it with out only have two or three birds. The key is numbers! The more you breed the wider the selection will be! If you start with only two you will need to hatch out LOTS. (Thousands!) of chicks to get genetic diversity. And using just a few breeding techquines you can do this while increasing genetic diversity, while not increasing how in bred they are. This is not information i am making up. Conversations with a great breeder and friend (Also a Biologist). You know you could end up with duplicates, sure. But 99% of breeds are not to the point where we need to worry about it. Also i have taken note that only slight devation's in the same strain but bred by seperate breeders is enough. Coupled with correct breeding strategics it's better then outcrossing.

I am wondering if you have bred chickens for any length of time? Even though i have only breeding for six years, there are somethings you just find out. The first year of breeding i developed a new line of Blue Rosecombs. Never got the to SQ before i dispresed of them because i lost interest in the flighty little breed

 

[Marengoite]

What you are describing is linebreeding (i.e inbreeding), certainly not an outcross

Thanks, Yard full o' rocks, for making my point. I'm getting the impression that the term "outcross" is being used imprecisely in this thread.

 

[3riverschick]

wow,

where to begin....

.

"I'm getting the impression that the term "outcross" is being used imprecisely in this thread."

Marengoite, I think you are right.
Best,
Karen
..

 

[FeyRaine]

Jeff said (per Bob's prior advice re RIR)
you select the earliest maturing males and push for high egg production on the female side then the color and type comes along with the package.

I can't think of a way to word my questions w/o sounding argumentative so you know; I am sincerely asking this for info.--

On the 'earliest maturing males" - I'm wanting to assume the benchmark would be reach mature weight for breed?
but we know what assumptions lead to, & I can think of several other things ppl mean by earliest maturing like first to crow, or fully feathered to final adult pattern, or maybe some combination of factors?
& as a follow on this goes back to the issue of the larger breeds (ex Jersey Giant) the male would not reach that until he was say 2 yrs old & other breeds somewhere between 6 months & 2 yrs, but the breeding charts often reflect culling males at the fast end of that range so the 2nd gen. male is only 1 yr. old when used in say a rolling breeding system (per the chart), so is it implied to adjust for the slower maturing breeds by waiting an extra year b/f culling & selection on males? (which brings up all sorts of management issues in terms of overwintering a bigger number of males than one might for a faster maturing breed.)

In parallel, the issue w/ egg production in pullets vs. hens comes into play and raises many detailed questions in my mind for example:

(We had an extreme heat/drought spring&summer followed suddenly by a month of rain and 3 flocks on my street all stopped laying before the fall equinox this year which was certainly undesirable whereas other flocks w/in 50 miles have continued to lay to this week, these are mixed/mutt/hatchery flocks but overall I'd judge the still laying flocks as more desirable than the early quitters, this comes to mind as I feed 25 birds but had to buy eggs at the grocery store! I'm not happy w/ low or off levels of production & I don't think anyone else would be either, it sure isn't a selling point on any breed, or strain... & on another thread on BYC a person posted they were happy for 4eggs/wk from a certain hen while mine of that type layed 100% everyday from Spring Equinox til Sept 1, that to me is a significant diff. almost 50% )


Do I keep egg charts on each female? for how long b/f I find my best layers, one cycle or more?
Does onset of first laying being early factor in?
What about length of lay ?

Egg laying to whatever is that breed's par or better is needs to be a dependable trait, so how best do I go about measuring that in a pool of potential breeder females to be sure I keep the future generations true for laying ability? & I don't want to re-invent the wheel on this critical & complex aspect but I also don't want to find myself happy for 4 eggs/week from a hen who "should" give 5 ,6 or even 7...

Thanks again for all the great sharing on this thread
FeyRaine

 

[call ducks]

Hey Karen!