Bob Blosl's Heritage Large Fowl Thread

[Ivagrove]

Hi, I've been lurking on this thread from the beginning, and I'd like to put my two cents in on the term "heritage fowl". It would be best to think of it as being similar to the term "classic car". When someone says "classic car" anybody knows what is being referred to. The good old ones that have stood the test of time. You can probably find some car show people ready to gouge each other's eyes out over whether a particular vehicle is or isn't "classic", but just about everybody else knows what classic means without a dictionary or google or a lawyer. The ALBC definition of "heritage" is for the purpose of marketing meat from noncommercial birds. If that is what you want to do, then the ALBC definition is the one you need to go by. If not, if you want exhibition birds, old-time farm birds, homestead birds, or whatever, the ALBC definition of hertage is irrelevent. If there is a standard-bred chicken breed that you love, and you want to preserve it and breed it to be exactly what it was meant to be, then what does it matter if it makes some particular list of "heritage fowl"? I think more can be gained by talking old-timey golden oldie chickens, where to get them, and how to breed them right, than by getting into legalistical bickering over one word that really doesn't matter in the end.

 

[catdaddyfro]

Hi, I've been lurking on this thread from the beginning, and I'd like to put my two cents in on the term "heritage fowl". It would be best to think of it as being similar to the term "classic car". When someone says "classic car" anybody knows what is being referred to. The good old ones that have stood the test of time. You can probably find some car show people ready to gouge each other's eyes out over whether a particular vehicle is or isn't "classic", but just about everybody else knows what classic means without a dictionary or google or a lawyer. The ALBC definition of "heritage" is for the purpose of marketing meat from noncommercial birds. If that is what you want to do, then the ALBC definition is the one you need to go by. If not, if you want exhibition birds, old-time farm birds, homestead birds, or whatever, the ALBC definition of hertage is irrelevent. If there is a standard-bred chicken breed that you love, and you want to preserve it and breed it to be exactly what it was meant to be, then what does it matter if it makes some particular list of "heritage fowl"? I think more can be gained by talking old-timey golden oldie chickens, where to get them, and how to breed them right, than by getting into legalistical bickering over one word that really doesn't matter in the end.

Boy you must have high tolerance level to have held you tongue throughout 9200 or so posts on this thread, I sure need to practice my patience at this level more often, LOL I couldn't have done it nor have I

go ahead on.

Jeff

 

[Chris09]

It is nice to be loved by somebody! LOL.

Thanks Chris.

I shouldn't have started my little rampage again; I know. But the whole concept of 'heritage' leaving out the world's OLDEST DOCUMENTED breed just gets under my skin. Especially when that same breed antedates many breeds in the Standard in its arrival in North America. Further, it is in the basic makeup of the Cornish which is considered a 'heritage' breed. Go figure that one?

I look at it like this, If the oldest documented breed of chicken is not considered a "heritage" breed then the term heritage really doesn't mean that much now does it.
Here is another that gets to me, It has been documented that Gamefowl "Breeding" in the States has been apart of American Heritage since before the first president but why aren't American, Spanish etc. Gamefowl breeds considered a "heritage" breed?

Makes no sense to me.

Chris

 

[Arielle]

Quote: Thanks Karen--BC Marans were my first purebred non-mutt non hatchery bird. I got them for the eggs but the also got me hook on understanding how to breed them properly. Still learning--Snowbird mentioned that party birds re not easy for beginners--I'm trying anyways because I already have them and love the egg color.

I have not had the same experiences others must have. I have found poultry breeders to be a generous bunch. Poultry enthusiasts in general are friendly people. Opinionated maybe, but good people.

There just isn't a lot of people breeding some breeds, and it takes time to learn how to locate them. I have found that when the breeders are located, that they are usually happy to help. Many of them are glad to meet someone that shares a common intersest.

I would say that it is easier now than it has ever been to find what you want. We can't expect everyone to do something for us. Some will, some will not. Sometimes it is just timing.

Maybe it is that it is too easy, and we expect it to always be easy.

If someone gets discouraged trying to source some birds, then I cannot imagine them getting far with them if they did get them.

I hear what you are saying . . . . but . . . With the increase in chicken popularity, I would think you do want good birds to be as easy to find as the hatchery birds.

Not everybody that buys/gets quality birds are going to do right by the breed, or follow what the original breeders intent was BUT if you get one, or two, or three people, young or old, that gets and accepts the help of those with more expertise on that breed, then that is just a few more people out there, whether they show or not, that is giving these heritage breeds a fighting chance.

It has to be a two way street in order for these breeds to progress to where they should be. We have to have experienced breeders willing to take the chance, be there to answer questions, help guide the beginner, AND we have to have beginners who are willing to listen to the voice of experience and not be afraid to ask questions and ask for help.

I didn't have the first clue about not bringing in new lines to try and improve a line UNTIL I read the experts on these threads explaining it, explaining how to breed these birds. Now I know so I will follow the voice of experience and knowledge and breed my birds accordingly.

Not all beginners are "juniors". There is a growing number of older people that really want to raise heritage breed poultry to the standards BUT may never have the desire to show their birds. I am one of them and talk to many more just like me.

Penny

I don't like to show either-- I get very nervous and cannot enjoy it. I've shown dogs and horses. I would like my children to learn as I think they need a venue to converse with other people about animals and they have certainly gravitated to the fowl that I have. ANd the reality is I will be footing the bill--my kids cannot afford to buy the feed, etc. I was the one who became interested in chickens, then turkeys, then ducks--

Love to see people help the kids get started by lowering the purchase price to meet kids where they are financially. HOwever I bet many children "fail" with birds because they don't have a parent to support their interest. SO it might not be so much the fault of a child, as the lack of adult support. Just my thoughts as a parent.

 

[Arielle]

Quote: BO are one of those "fell in love" for no logical reason than the color makes me smile. THen I realized I can get a good layer and meat bird in a heritage line.

 

[Yellow House Farm]

Bob, what I like about where you're going with your idea, is that it emphasizes the fact of community effort in good breeding, be it from the procural of original brood stock or the final selections from a year's hatching. At this point, my poultry friends and mentors have been so much a part of the process of our farm that the only aspect of these birds that is uniquely mine is the feed bill

. Everything else has been quite a group effort. This or that many times a year they come over, after club meetings or what have you, and we walk around the pens discussing what's coming up. It's wonderful that human minds work so differently, and we each emphasize different points when looking at the birds. These points, when shared, come to form a complete picture. They always point something out that I've been slow to pick up and vice versa. After a while, where my knowledge point stops and theirs begins starts to blur. Did I discover such and such, or did I read it in a book, or did so and so tell me to be aware of it? I love reading and do exhaustively, but I have found that nothing stokes the fire of commitment to quality like the time I spend with my friends and mentors at an APA/ABA sanctioned show or when one of us pays a call to the other to visit the pens and talk chicken. It keeps me on my toes, renews my commitment to culling, hones my focus, keeps my eyes from greedy wanderings to other people's birds and risking the over extension of my resources.

As for the term "Heritage", I'm quite fond of it. It is a tool, and it is a good tool because it works, it does the trick. It evokes in folks the tone and the need for care. Bob is right, talking about Standard-bred fowl, at least at the beginning, does not stoke the fires adequately. Moreover, like Bob I treat the term "heritage" as a synonym for Standard-bred. There's the old adage that the Devil's in the details". When we try to establish arbitrary cut-off dates onto what is or is not "heritage", we make a move against the essential fact of heritage, namely that it is on-going. Heritage is not one period of time. Insofar as we can see the red carpet of heritage extend far into the past beyond the NH's to the Rocks to the Leghorns to the La Fleche, to the Dorkings, to the Games, we can also see it extend into the future. The Heritage is in the APA; it's in the Standard. It's in what is there now; it's in what will follow. The term "heritage" works because it keeps things human; "heritage" speaks to the work of human hands. I think that the natural shift from the term "heritage" to the term "Standardbred" happens gradually as one progresses from the idea of breeding fowl to the fact of breeding fowl.

I like Saladin's time references to fowl within the umbrella of Heritage-Standardbred fowl because these terms remind us of each fowl's historicity, which stokes the fires of romance which lead to commitment.

 

[saladin]

Ah Joe, your just a sentimental ole fool..... and I love you for it.

 

[saladin]

Some of us are arguementative by nature while the rest of you have to work at it.

 

[HallFamilyFarm]

The best list of "Heritage" breeds is at http://www.amerpoultryassn.com/APA Recognized Breeds and Varieties Sept2012.pdf

Scroll down the dates and anything admitted prior to 1965ish would be considered Heritage. Then there are some old breeds that never were accepted in the Standard of Perfection. The SPPA has a list. Salidan can get you that info.

Can anyone give me a list of what would be considered Heritage large Fowl?
Would Large Fowl Barred Rocks be considered Heritage Large fowl?

Do to the circumstances of our divorce, I have had to turn down several wanting Buff Orpingtons. We are working on replacing our males we lost, but even then, all eggs will be for our own use to restore our flock. We do have Blue Orpingtons available in hatching eggs. We have been taking the hatching egg money and reinvesting it in feed and other varieties of Orpingtons.

Most breeders will not sell hatching eggs. I agree with them. I sold 6 eggs to thedragonlady and she hatched 5 (4 pullets). Now everyone on the Orp threads are going nuts over how nice they are. They even started laying at 6 months old. I give her credit for some, but much is just good genetics. Genetics that I acquired from another good breeder a few years ago. This year was our year to shine, but then .... lets just say that divorce stinks.

We do have some nice females. Just no buff males. One has been offered, but is 500 miles and 3 months away. We keep thinking we have a cockerel in the juvenile pen, but these Orps are tricky. One day I know its a cockerel and the next not sure. They are about 4 months old. It should be soon that even I can tell the difference in a slow maturing cockerel and a pullet.

I have not had the same experiences others must have. I have found poultry breeders to be a generous bunch. Poultry enthusiasts in general are friendly people. Opinionated maybe, but good people.

There just isn't a lot of people breeding some breeds, and it takes time to learn how to locate them. I have found that when the breeders are located, that they are usually happy to help. Many of them are glad to meet someone that shares a common intersest.

I would say that it is easier now than it has ever been to find what you want. We can't expect everyone to do something for us. Some will, some will not. Sometimes it is just timing.

Maybe it is that it is too easy, and we expect it to always be easy.

If someone gets discouraged trying to source some birds, then I cannot imagine them getting far with them if they did get them.

Quote:
Most of the same folks that started using the term "Heritage" were involved with the ALBC. Now the ALBC has been appointed to the APA Heritage Committee. Most likely the final APA Heritage description will resemble the ALBC that APA judge and Master Breeder Frank Reese help write. APA judge Danny Williamson and Terry Britt also helped with that description.

Mschlumb is correct. In any case, Heritage must meet the Standard of Perfection. Buying hatchery stock that resembles the breed, is not having Heritage poultry. My thought is if a judge does not disqualify a bird, it meets the standard enough. The only "hatchery" I know of that has APA judges come out to inspect their flock is Metzer Farms, a waterfowl hatchery in California. Of course, Duane Urch is a judge, thus inspects and culls his own birds.

Superior Farms was a great place for Heritage poultry until it shut down in 2010. Many breeders list birds, chicks and eggs for sale in the Poultry Press. But most breeders want their birds going to reputable folks who will continue the lines on. If I could afford it, i would only sell adult birds. But my hatching egg money pays my feed bill. (Most of the time).

 

[catdaddyfro]

Some of us are arguementative by nature while the rest of you have to work at it.

Jeff