Bob Blosl's Heritage Large Fowl Thread

[Robert Blosl]

Quote: Go to a bank and get a loan for about $10,000 you will need about 15 years of time and then you will have what you can get by buying two dozen eggs or 10 started chicks from one of these folks on this thread. If you got feed store chickens either you keep them or put them to the side and get the real kind in the long run it will save you a lot of head aches and you wont get frustrated and give up. Heck a lot of people get frustrated even with the real breeds and give up. Why put a burden on your self. Either you are a preservationist or you are not. If you just want to keep your old feed store chickens and cross them onto you Standard Breed Fowl or the H chicken go for it. Raise them as you want to and be happy.

We are in dire need of people who will adopt a old breed and try to do their best to keep it going be for we loose them. We have lost enough old breeds and had to go out and cross them on other breeds to reinvent them. In five to ten years many of the Rocks and Wyandottes just as a example will be gone. Only one or two have them and even some of the birds the have are almost near hatchery level.

Here is a need a person sent me a email wanting to know if I have Rose Comb Large Fowl. I do not. Who on this board has any who could share eggs or two week old chicks. I do not think this person lives near anyone who is a good breeder and most good breeders in this breed do not share their birds.

Charlie V can you help any one this year?

Look forward to your help on this issue.

Going to the Pens cola Poultry Clubs meeting this afternoon. We are going to have a huge Show in March if you live not to far you need to come the last show we had 125 large fowl.

KISS

 

[OSUman]

I don't know many breeders of Australorps, but Doug Akers and Bob Gilbert have some really good stock. I am pretty sure that Doug doesn't ship chicks but I do know Bob does, I would recommend contacting them to see if you could get some stock from them.

So what do we need to to do as fer as breeding methods to grade up average birds? Have been gathering eggs to set out of an ok australorp roo and my best 4 Pullets. I guess my plan on them this year is to to hatch as many as I can afford, and cull hard for a start next fall. Any suggestions? New breed is in the old reviled the new is in the old concealed.

 

[Robert Blosl]

I don't know many breeders of Australorps, but Doug Akers and Bob Gilbert have some really good stock. I am pretty sure that Doug doesn't ship chicks but I do know Bob does, I would recommend contacting them to see if you could get some stock from them.
Quote: I have seen Dougs and they are correct size and true to type.

 

[Bluetick340]

My banker(wife) is already after me about my feed cost for stock. I was just kind of askin to change subject I guess. But really what is the best words of wisdom or advise to start with these breeds or the next 4 years. Thank you Bob.

 

[Bentley]

There are Columbian breeds which are founded on eb Brown. The Light Sussex is properly eWh/eWh S/S Co/Co.
The way I tell the difference is in the color of the undercolor. Plus, the eb based birds often show black ticking on the male saddle. This usually doesn't show in eWh based breed unless the color balancing is way off with too much black.  Probably by the time one saw black ticking in the saddle of an eWh based male Light Sussex bird, one would also see a superhackle also on him.
Karen

You could be right. I raise light Sussex as well and was also using some classical references for this breed. "Registry of Poultry and Genetic Stocks" Ralph Somes, Poultry Genetics, Univ. if Connecticut, published 1978. Describes this breed and designates the genetic make up of the breed and the plumage patterns. He references two articles on how Columbian restriction pattern works, Journal of Heredity1965, 56g 150-156 and Journal of Heredity 1970, 61:280-283. However, some breed patterns have changed if other genetics have been introduced. If the breeds have been maintained 'pure' from their origination then they 'should' carry the designated patterns that were determined through genetic testing. But knowing how much cross breeding goes on, the base genetic make up could be different.

 

[3riverschick]

You could be right. I raise light Sussex as well and was also using some classical references for this breed. "Registry of Poultry and Genetic Stocks" Ralph Somes, Poultry Genetics, Univ. if Connecticut, published 1978. Describes this breed and designates the genetic make up of the breed and the plumage patterns. He references two articles on how Columbian restriction pattern works, Journal of Heredity1965, 56g 150-156 and Journal of Heredity 1970, 61:280-283. However, some breed patterns have changed if other genetics have been introduced. If the breeds have been maintained 'pure' from their origination then they 'should' carry the designated patterns that were determined through genetic testing. But knowing how much cross breeding goes on, the base genetic make up could be different.

==========
Hi Bentley,
I have also been doing a lot of classic study on Light Sussex. Such a rich literary history of this breed. Just another thing that drew me to them, smile. There's a confusing alliteration back in the early part of last century. People seem to be giving breeding advice which doesn't match up with what we see in our birds today. Yet the advice is coming from honored veteran breeders of that era. I think I am starting to figure it out. As you know, there is a lot of Light Brahma in Light Sussex foundation. Sharpe (see book Sussex Fowl , on-line at archive.org). Sharpe was the originator of the Light Sussex and we get some clues in his book. OK, Light Brahma are an eb-based breed. Plus there is also Buff Cochin in Light Sussex. If I read Sharpe correctly, the sappiness was coming from the Buff Cochin. The black ticking on the saddle and other parts was coming from the Light Brahma. The Silver Grey Dorking, obviously, was the culprit for the 5 toes they needed to breed out of the Light Sussex...however, also made the Silver gene available to the fancy.
OK, so I think the Light Sussex was accepted by the English Sussex Poultry Club (which was founded in 1903) about 1906? and by the British Poultry Club circa 1913?. I think I am close on that.
So early on, we start seeing all this counsel on depth and hue of undercolor and how it effects top color. How to deal with sappiness and breed it out. I think the fancy was still dealing wit the residual effects of eb and buff in the Light Sussex. But because they are still describing their breeding efforts as "The art of breeding" they describe colors and their interaction instead of the genes behind them. I am not even sure the genes had been ID'd at this time in history.
OK, so gradually we see them stop discussing sappiness and the discussion on under-color begins to evolve from depth and hue....to pure white and how to color balance the hackle in male and female. Then about the time the genes for Light Sussex, eb and buff , etc., get IDed and the info scattered around the fancy, we stop seeing the discussion about sappiness, and under-color at all. Now it is all about color balancing the black and white in both sexes. The only references we see to undercolor at all have to do with it's effect on color balancing the hackles in both sexes.
What happened? I think, unbeknownst to the Light Sussex fancy...because they were using the "art of breeding" and going by visual results instead of genetics....I think the fancy ( while trying to solve the sappiness, undercolor, and ticking problems) bred out the eb locus and buff gene, leaving just Silver and Co on a pure eWh base. I am not sure they knew what they had done as defined by genetics ... more the results just lined up with their goals.
Later on, the scientists gave names to the genes in Light Sussex. By then, the Silver gene was established in the Light Sussex. So unless we go back and study how the terminology of that era was changed and shaped by the collison of the two fields of breeding, the art of breeding, and the genetics of breeding, it seems difficult to understand the color history of the Light Sussex. I've been muddling thru this confusion for over a year now and it's just starting to make sense.
-------------------------
Think it's the same thing with the APA versus English description of the Light Sussex hackle. Britain says white feather striped with black. APA says black feather laced with white. They really are kinda two different things. But why? Why the difference? Well, back when Light Sussex were being shown and considered for APA SOP, the folk in Britain were having trouble with a fad for superhackle. Outram talks about it in his 1920's book. I have a copy here. However, the top show birds of that era were what was being shown in the US. I think the APA folk went by what they saw. Certainly makes sense from an APA standpoint. And I think what they saw was these superhackle Light Sussex. So, while the fancy in Britain eventually came back to center and began breeding correct hackle once more. By then, the APA had written the Standard as a black feather laced in silver because that is what a superhackle looks like. Fortunately for today's breeders, the APA did not assign ratios to black and white in the hackle feathers. So we can breed to either description and still be acceptable at the shows. The lacing will just be wider in some cases than in others.
Plus we now have the genome for the Light Sussex so it is obvious to breeders that the proper hackle is made by using Co correctly and not using any other genes which might promote lacing of feathers.
Gotta love that breed history,
Karen

Moral of the story: Pick and choose coor breeding info from that early era, however the structure breeding info is great, classic, timelesss....click, drool.

 

[Game]

here is 1 of my large malay boys

 

[Marengoite]

So what do we need to to do as fer as breeding methods to grade up average birds? Have been gathering eggs to set out of an ok australorp roo and my best 4 Pullets. I guess my plan on them this year is to to hatch as many as I can afford, and cull hard for a start next fall. Any suggestions? New breed is in the old reviled the new is in the old concealed.

Upgrading average birds? Eat as many of them as you can.

Then buy good stock and breed those. That should still be able to supply you with plenty more average birds to eat. I have a friend who started with hatchery Buckeyes about 10 years ago. Messed with them for a while before finding good stock. He said he wished he'd started with the good stock instead of the hatchery birds because it would have saved him lots of time and even more money if he had.

For the record - average birds still taste delicious.

 

[Arielle]

Quote: I like the one I have from the McMurray hatchery as far as looks and temperament. He really turned me on to hamburgs. Of course the one I have is on ly about 1/4-1/3 the size of the rooster at the Fall New ENgland Bantam show. I stood and looked at that fellow for about 10 minutes. He really impressed me. I was excited to see the real size of the LF is actually as big or bigger than many of the other LF at the show.

 

[Yellow House Farm]

I like the one I have from the McMurray hatchery as far as looks and temperament. He really turned me on to hamburgs. Of course the one I have is on ly about 1/4-1/3 the size of the rooster at the Fall New ENgland Bantam show. I stood and looked at that fellow for about 10 minutes. He really impressed me. I was excited to see the real size of the LF is actually as big or bigger than many of the other LF at the show.

I wouldn't be surprised if you are describing one of Erik's birds. He is from ME.