Bob Blosl's Heritage Large Fowl Thread

[3riverschick]

Sorry Karen, I wasn't very clear - I only mentioned the 4 weeks of age = no heat in response to your option of raising the chicks inside for 6 weeks. I followed your broody adventure both here and on the old fashioned broody hen hatch thread, and have thoroughly enjoyed hearing how successful March was/is raising her chicks. Your weather has been frightful from the sounds of it! Here it has been a very strange late winter/early spring, just last weekend we were down in the single digits overnight again for 3 or 4 nights in a row - the last few years by mid-March we were running irrigation lines and watering grass.

Oh, Ok, I understand now, duh... , smile. Yes, everyone in PA is really frustrated. Winter just keeps hanging on. Looks like relief next week with highs in upper 40;s, but still in low 30's at night, sigh. May is laying but keeps covering up her eggs with pine shavings. Don't know what that means. Junior isn't bothering them. At least she hasn't gone broody, smile.
Best,
Karen

 

[BGMatt]

Laingcroft, thank you for your insights. I have never raised Houdan before, but I do have one 6 week old in my brooders right now, it is also from Urch stock that I acquired at a local 4H auction. Even at this age it seems much less spooky than the polish that came from the same source. Still there might be some potential there but with only one (sex undetermined as of yet), its personality could promote me to find others.

I am very familiar with the Langshan, they were my first breed, the one I had the most success with and raised for the longest time. They are truly awesome fowl and it is difficult to not automatically default to them. No matter what other breeds I end up with, I just don't picture not having some in at least one variety and size. If nothing else for superstitious reasons, the last year I had Langshans on the property was the last year I would actually call myself an active breeder even though I kept birds around for a couple years after that.

 

[Robert Blosl]

So, Heritage Large Fowl thread, I seek input and opinions. When I made the decision a couple months ago to return to chickens, poultry breeding, the whole shebang I thought I knew what breeds I wanted to work with...but I find after researching, and seeing the passion some have for some of the true heritage breeds, and realizing my own tastes have changed over the years I've been gone I am reconsidering my breed selection. With the facilities already built or nearly done I can support one serious breed starting this year, and 5-6 breeds that would be side projects or trial runs to see what I enjoy working with the most (the others, well at least they'll have a year or two of improvement and be passed on to someone else to continue the work).

Since this thread seems to be breed neutral, I ask here, what breeds and varieties are in the most need of help? I have recently been looking at RC Rhode Island Reds, SC Buff Leghorns, SC Dark Brown Leghorns, Silver Pencilled Plymouth Rocks, Silver Laced Wyandottes, Redcaps, Dark Cornish , Blue Langshans (probably not quite "heritage fowl" but I don't like that term anyway, I prefer Standard bred) and Partridge Plymouth Rocks, but I'm open to other breeds. As mentioned looking for one primary breed, and then a secondary different breed (like if my main breed was a leghorn or other pure egg layer I'd want a dual purpose fowl for secondary) and some tertiary breeds. As my mentor said when asked what their favorite breed was "A good one." I truly love all forms of standard fowl, but must limit myself to a few, I plan to expand facilities every year as much as feasible.

My 3 goals coming back are: 1) Provide eggs and meat for myself (which is why I want a primary and secondary breed, one of which is dual purpose). 2) To give back to a hobby I've enjoyed for 2/3 of my life by breeding to SOP fowl that are being left by the wayside and not seen as much anymore, promote them to the public though work and shows. 3) To enjoy life, what is better in life than spending time working in our poultry yards?

Anyway, I find myself in need of advice and counsel, and I'm hoping to get some well thought out responses that might help me narrow my focus. The goal is one serious breed now and then some to test the waters and see if they're ones I want to commit to. The problem is left to my own devices I'd choose around 20 test breeds and I just can't do that time, facility, or economy wise right now so I'm opening up to help narrowing it down.

Who was the judge that you mentored you in the Battle Ground area? I lived up the road from you a few miles in Centralia. In fact each year the Battle Ground High School would compeat with us in Track Meets and I think we went down there to their school a few times as well. That was in the 1960s. I made the circuit of fairs and poultry shows in the Washington and Oregon area. It was big large fowl country back then. All the breeds that folks ask about where shown at these shows but today this region is very quite in the large fowl numbers. Bantams has taken over because they are less expensive to raise and feed. There for more people breed them and the shape and color are more true to Standard.

In regards to the breeds you want Duane Urch who sells chicks to people may have the breeds you want to get started with or some of his customers who got some from him a year or so ago. They may share their eggs or chicks with you as well. Many over the very rare breeds that people want because they see pictures of them or read about how neat they once wear are very poor in shape and color today in fact they are hatchery level in appearance.

It may take many of you beginners two to three years to narrow down your wants after you get them but two breeds is a good number to try to have. That way you can hatch enough numbers to try to improve what you started with. People who get to many breeds go around in circles and the feed bills can kill there hopes and many give up the hobby and you never hear from them again. You need to attend the poultry shows 100 miles above and below you to see who has what you may want you also need to join the APA so you can get a year book with the people who have won with the breeds that you want and next you need to get the poultry Press paper Google that and go to their web site so you can see who is winning with the breeds that you may want.

Keep on asking and hunting but most of all be patient. If you attend to get a breed don't buy a bird from Jim Jones and a female from Mary Smith and cross them. Try to get ten chicks from one breeder and start with him or her. Don't cross strains or you will just add more work to your project of Preservation of that breed. Even White birds once crossed will give you fits for three or four years. A multicolored bird if the strains are not related will do even more harm. IN R I Reds that is the number one reason people start and give up the breed. They just love to cross strains and will not listen to anyone why you should not. Its like mixing paint from Home Depot and Sears. It may be Red Paint but it may not look nice on your wall. You would be better off just painting your wall with one can from the one company and you will be much better off.

Look forward to who the judge was. bob

 

[BGMatt]

Hi Bob, I appreciate the well thought out reply and great advice. My mentor, 4-H leader and role model for poultry was Dave Owen formerly of Brush Prairie, APA and ABA judge, he also helped form and shape the APA/ABA youth program (which I hope is still going?) Great man, miss him greatly, he passed away in 2002.

I am a lifetime APA member so even though I haven't been raising poultry for a while I have all the yearbooks, and just recently renewed my Poultry Press subscription, which should make it, as you point out, fairly easy to find most breeds once I figure out which direction I am going.

There aren't many large fowl out here its true, kind of hoping to change that, bantams are great and all, but I would like to focus on standards. As a 4-H kid I loved listening to the old guys talk about the showrooms full of large fowl and huge turnouts at the fairs, I went through the Clark County Fair chicken barn last year and I'd be surprised if there was more than 300 birds there, maybe, maybe 40 of which were large fowl. I know Bob Anderson is still involved and am assuming he still has his Cochin large fowl, and I'd bet anything Jim Volk is still raising his White Rocks even though I dont know for sure, a forum member here told me John Tenneson is still breeding Minocras and Brahmas up north, there's new people too and can't wait to get back at the shows and involved again to meet them and see whats out there (next show thats close by in the PNPA show April 20th).

I've always had a problem narrowing breeds down, have had that problem for 19 years with chickens. I just like them all too much! Haha However you don't really know a breed until you've had it I think. And I'm not scared of a project, I want to show, but I don't care if I'm competitive right away or if it takes me 5-10 years to have something worth showing (now that is something the younger me would have NEVER said). I actually think that, combined with life and moving three times in a decade is what got me out of poultry the first time around. Young me was super competitive and dumped breeds I really enjoyed for breeds that I didn't care much about but there was more competition. Now I understand clearly that that just isn't the way to do things.

Thanks for the reminder about crossing strains, can't imagine doing that without it being a desperate attempt to fix fertility or laying from a line that was too inbred (of course if I'm smart and patient and get the birds from a good breeder that is much less likely to be a problem). Spring time is a horrible time to be bird shopping anyway unless you find people that are willing to ship chicks. Scared to ship in eggs after reading so many horror stories, although I imagine that those old 1202's of mine still work as well as they do when I stored them 4-5 years ago. (Haven't had a chance to dig them out of storage yet, will be doing that this week)

Well time to stop babbling on here, but thanks sincerely for the reply Bob. And hopefully will get more input from others too, getting to know their experiences with different breeds can help my decisions greatly.

 

[NanaKat]

BGMatt,
I have both Columbian Wyandottes and Cochins in Blue, Splash, Black and White...both breeds are Large fowl. They are not hatchery but both breeds came from breeders with a long history in their breed. Both breeds do well on free-range and are calm even friendly birds. Feed conversion is good....better on freerange and feed on demand. The flocks cover ground together and return to the feeder in the evening. Cock birds are good defenders and flock supervisors.

Hens in both breeds make great broody mothers of strong vigorous chicks. They lay 3 - 5 eggs each a week. Both breeds lay an off white, light tan colored egg. They are both protective of their clutch of eggs, their hatched chicks and accept incubator hatched eggs with no discrimination.

Young cockerels and pullets in each breed are calm and non-combative and live well with the flocks. Both breeds are slow to mature with pullets reaching point of lay about 7 - 9 months. Cockerels reach sexual maturity about 9 - 10 months....and have been tested on fertility this year with good success.

Size on the breed lines I have are:
CW - 10 month old Cockerels = 5 pound, 10 month pullets = 4.5 lbs, Cock (rooster) = 8 pounds, hens = 5 - 6 pounds. They have a white skin and dress out nicely with a good tooth to the flesh.
Cochin- 10 month old cockerels = 7 - 8 pounds, 10 month old pullets = 5 - 6 pounds, Cock birds at full maturity (18 - 22 months) weigh in at 11 - 14 pounds, hens = 6 - 7.5 pounds. They have a white skin. Im new enough with the Cochin that I have not yet butchered them. Others tell me that they have a nicely flavorful meat.

In addition, I have Black Australorp hens in my layer room. These are hatchery stock I got from Atwoods as pullets. They are calm hens, not flighty, lay abundantly a nice large brown egg. They make good broody mothers also. Even had one hen steal chicks that another mother was "weaning".. She raised them another two months. Even at 3 years of age, these hens are laying 5 - 7 eggs a week. They freerange extremely well. And butchered make a nice carcass with flavorful meat. White to light yellow skin.

 

[Dirt Farmer]

BGMatt,

We all go through the process. I learned that no one breed can do it all. I've settled on Langshans after 6 or 7 years of dabbling, but also keep some other chickens to compliment that breed's weaknesses, and add some variety for the flock and egg basket. (As much as I like the Langshan, to many people they're just another black chicken, and people like the "Martha Stewart" eggs of my EE layers, as my neighbor calls them.) Part of the reason I choose Langshans did not have anything to do with the breed but the people with whom I shared that journey. This goes to the enjoyment part of your decision. I'm throwing a vote to the Langshan, not because I like them, but because you have a positive history with them that goes way back. Having said that, you wouldn't necessarily need to go the dual purpose route if for instance you kept Leghorns and Cornish.

Good luck,

Dirt

 

[Robert Blosl]

Send me your address on a personel message and I will mail you the west coast breeders directory that Jim Volk sent me this week. I read it and the storys of the old timers who I knew. There are a few guys from the old Centralia Gang left. Tom Durgin has barreed rocks, Jim Volk White Rock large fowl, Larry Urban many breeds, Brian Decker lives down the road in Curtis but did not know him as a kid. There is a big time Light Brown Legrhorn breeder named Montgoemery who lives in Tennio who has some killer birds. So you need to see what shows are going up and down the road. There are stil some good shows a couple of times per year in Centralia at the Fair Grounds. Vern Sorenson who died a few years ago was my mentor and took us juniors to the shows in the 1960s. He was a judge but more than anything he had a eye for a bird that was just coming along. He would buy a bird that was five or six months old for $5. from a guy and then show the heck out of it. Another guy I am sure you met was Ken Cooke from Oregon. He called Vern the quickest eye in the west. The only person who I ever saw with this gift from God was Wilbur Staffuer of Ohio.

He could judge chickens like a egg better. He was like Vern a string man and did not take him only 30 seconds to look over a bird and like it or not.

The other weekend I was explaining to a new friend about the importance of breeding from hens and COCK birds and looked at a class of three white rock bantam hens and said to him look at this little girl. See how she still has her pullet shape and look. That's the kind of female you want in your breeding pen. Latter that afternoon I saw the owner taking a white rock bantam female up to champion row so the judges could judge the class champions as she was Champion SCCL. For you in the beginners world that is Champion Single Comb Clean Legged bantam of the show. I got out of my chair and walked up to the row looked sure enough it was his hen. Then I walked down to the aisles where I saw the three hens that mourning and sure enough it was the female on the far right. I said to myself. Thanks VERN I think its starting to work. I can spot one in a hurry. Its a lost art but you can train your brain to do it.

I still think you have to be a person who has a Visual type Personality to master this gift. I had a guy who asked me a question a few months ago and my wife said you explained it good enough that a 6th grader could understand it but he needs pictures to figure out how to do this or build it.

I will come up with a idea in my head and may take me three to four weeks to build it. But , once I get in my shop the idea comes true. I am working on Pens for sports teams for Alabama and Auburn and LSU. Today I am going out to see if I can make what I think will work with the school colors. I have had to order plastic for these pens from all over the country and even Germany to get what I want. My wife says you need to learn how to make and pour your own plastic blanks but I just don't want to get into another hobby. Heck I am trying to build a butter fly garden.

My point in all of this to be a good breeder you have to visualize into the future. One old time breeder I studied as a kid was C M Cyrus Lewis from Portland. It would take him five years to breed a bird and in that time he would have a bird on champion row at the Oregon State Fair. The last one I saw was a Buff Brahma large fowl. He was the best brahma I ever saw and the most even colored buff you ever saw. Many commented that was one of the finest breeding jobs they ever saw or heard of at a APA national meet we had there. So you had good training as a youth. I had a hunch this fellow was your leader. He was one of the greats. I never met him however.

 

[Lacy Blues]

Send me your address on a personel message and I will mail you the west coast breeders directory that Jim Volk sent me this week. I read it and the storys of the old timers who I knew. There are a few guys from the old Centralia Gang left. Tom Durgin has barreed rocks, Jim Volk White Rock large fowl, Larry Urban many breeds, Brian Decker lives down the road in Curtis but did not know him as a kid. There is a big time Light Brown Legrhorn breeder named Montgoemery who lives in Tennio who has some killer birds.

I believe Mr. Don Montgomery also has Minorcas and maybe white Leghorns.

So you need to see what shows are going up and down the road. There are stil some good shows a couple of times per year in Centralia at the Fair Grounds. Vern Sorenson who died a few years ago was my mentor and took us juniors to the shows in the 1960s. He was a judge but more than anything he had a eye for a bird that was just coming along. He would buy a bird that was five or six months old for $5. from a guy and then show the heck out of it. Another guy I am sure you met was Ken Cooke from Oregon. He called Vern the quickest eye in the west. The only person who I ever saw with this gift from God was Wilbur Staffuer of Ohio.

He could judge chickens like a egg better. He was like Vern a string man and did not take him only 30 seconds to look over a bird and like it or not.

The other weekend I was explaining to a new friend about the importance of breeding from hens and COCK birds and looked at a class of three white rock bantam hens and said to him look at this little girl. See how she still has her pullet shape and look. That's the kind of female you want in your breeding pen.

Is this why some hens don't do well at the shows? This is good information to know. I guess I'm going to have to start keeping a photo journal so I can see the difference. Can you explain further on how this type of hen is better than a hen who hasn't kept her pullet type? I have wondered why you have made statements like "To breed from birds which are two years old, you watch a pullet to see if she loses her type after her first big molt" and have been intending to ask about that but now you've said this and I'm thinking its the same statement? I've tried to breed from 2 year old birds but didn't realize that THIS is what I'm looking for?

Latter that afternoon I saw the owner taking a white rock bantam female up to champion row so the judges could judge the class champions as she was Champion SCCL. For you in the beginners world that is Champion Single Comb Clean Legged bantam of the show. I got out of my chair and walked up to the row looked sure enough it was his hen. Then I walked down to the aisles where I saw the three hens that mourning and sure enough it was the female on the far right. I said to myself. Thanks VERN I think its starting to work. I can spot one in a hurry. Its a lost art but you can train your brain to do it.

I still think you have to be a person who has a Visual type Personality to master this gift. I had a guy who asked me a question a few months ago and my wife said you explained it good enough that a 6th grader could understand it but he needs pictures to figure out how to do this or build it.

I will come up with a idea in my head and may take me three to four weeks to build it. But , once I get in my shop the idea comes true. I am working on Pens for sports teams for Alabama and Auburn and LSU. Today I am going out to see if I can make what I think will work with the school colors. I have had to order plastic for these pens from all over the country and even Germany to get what I want. My wife says you need to learn how to make and pour your own plastic blanks but I just don't want to get into another hobby. Heck I am trying to build a butter fly garden.

My point in all of this to be a good breeder you have to visualize into the future. One old time breeder I studied as a kid was C M Cyrus Lewis from Portland. It would take him five years to breed a bird and in that time he would have a bird on champion row at the Oregon State Fair. The last one I saw was a Buff Brahma large fowl. He was the best brahma I ever saw and the most even colored buff you ever saw. Many commented that was one of the finest breeding jobs they ever saw or heard of at a APA national meet we had there. So you had good training as a youth. I had a hunch this fellow was your leader. He was one of the greats. I never met him however.

 

[BGMatt]

Nanacat Thank you for the response. I am surprise to learn the large Wyandottes take that long to develop as I was under the impression that they were faster developers. The Cochin of course has been on my mind due to that lingering fondness of Asiatic class. May play with them someday, but don't know if they fit the dual purpose or really great single purpose I'm looking for in a primary breed. I love sparking good discussion though.

Dirt Farmer Langshans have faults? You're probably right, been discussing all this with non Internet friends too and they're pushing me towards Langshan focus with a side of Leghorns. (Lots of votes or Black Rock Bantams, Khaki Campbells and Call Ducks which were three breeds That tie back to my days in the Hatchers with Dave as well)

Bob Yes I know all those names except Mr. Montgomery. I didn't know Tom had Barred Rocks though. Mr. Decker was a major influence on the way I look at OEGB and how to apply the Standard to them. I had the pleasure as a young man of clerking for both Ken Cooke and Vern Sorenson multiple times. Ken taught me a lot when I clerked for him, I always loved how he left plenty of comments of a birds strength and weaknesses on the coop cards. (Something I adapted at fairs). The first couple times I saw Vern judge I had no idea how he could be so fast and sometimes barely even handling a bird, but when some exhibitors called him on it, and he showed them in slower detail what he saw at a glance I was amazed. Dave had a good eye, and told me I did, but as you say I have yet to see someone that could tell as much about birds at a glance as Vern could.

Someday I hope to have even half the levels of knowledge some of those guys had and some of you guys have today. Have to learn everyday and never be satisfied unless I'm giving my best, in the end that will be enough.

In other news just put the roof on my brand new breeding pens today which I'm terribly excited about. So that tomorrow hopefully can finish that off and move on to rebuilding another set of pens to be used for grow out pens. Don't know yet for sure what's gonna be breeding and growing out in those pens but you have to build the barn before you can put chickens in it!

 

[thedragonlady]

Send me your address on a personel message and I will mail you the west coast breeders directory that Jim Volk sent me this week. I read it and the storys of the old timers who I knew. There are a few guys from the old Centralia Gang left. Tom Durgin has barreed rocks, Jim Volk White Rock large fowl, Larry Urban many breeds, Brian Decker lives down the road in Curtis but did not know him as a kid. There is a big time Light Brown Legrhorn breeder named Montgoemery who lives in Tennio who has some killer birds. So you need to see what shows are going up and down the road. There are stil some good shows a couple of times per year in Centralia at the Fair Grounds. Vern Sorenson who died a few years ago was my mentor and took us juniors to the shows in the 1960s. He was a judge but more than anything he had a eye for a bird that was just coming along. He would buy a bird that was five or six months old for $5. from a guy and then show the heck out of it. Another guy I am sure you met was Ken Cooke from Oregon. He called Vern the quickest eye in the west. The only person who I ever saw with this gift from God was Wilbur Staffuer of Ohio.

He could judge chickens like a egg better. He was like Vern a string man and did not take him only 30 seconds to look over a bird and like it or not.

The other weekend I was explaining to a new friend about the importance of breeding from hens and COCK birds and looked at a class of three white rock bantam hens and said to him look at this little girl. See how she still has her pullet shape and look. That's the kind of female you want in your breeding pen. Latter that afternoon I saw the owner taking a white rock bantam female up to champion row so the judges could judge the class champions as she was Champion SCCL. For you in the beginners world that is Champion Single Comb Clean Legged bantam of the show. I got out of my chair and walked up to the row looked sure enough it was his hen. Then I walked down to the aisles where I saw the three hens that mourning and sure enough it was the female on the far right. I said to myself. Thanks VERN I think its starting to work. I can spot one in a hurry. Its a lost art but you can train your brain to do it.

I still think you have to be a person who has a Visual type Personality to master this gift. I had a guy who asked me a question a few months ago and my wife said you explained it good enough that a 6th grader could understand it but he needs pictures to figure out how to do this or build it.

I will come up with a idea in my head and may take me three to four weeks to build it. But , once I get in my shop the idea comes true. I am working on Pens for sports teams for Alabama and Auburn and LSU. Today I am going out to see if I can make what I think will work with the school colors. I have had to order plastic for these pens from all over the country and even Germany to get what I want. My wife says you need to learn how to make and pour your own plastic blanks but I just don't want to get into another hobby. Heck I am trying to build a butter fly garden.

My point in all of this to be a good breeder you have to visualize into the future. One old time breeder I studied as a kid was C M Cyrus Lewis from Portland. It would take him five years to breed a bird and in that time he would have a bird on champion row at the Oregon State Fair. The last one I saw was a Buff Brahma large fowl. He was the best brahma I ever saw and the most even colored buff you ever saw. Many commented that was one of the finest breeding jobs they ever saw or heard of at a APA national meet we had there. So you had good training as a youth. I had a hunch this fellow was your leader. He was one of the greats. I never met him however.

I may have said it before , but I'll keep on saying it : Wilbur was one of the best. A real gent, and a sweet, helpful man to everyone he met.
When I first met him while showing Nubians at Knoxville, he took me all through the show. He asked what I'd like to buy. I told him Silver Laced Wyandotte LF. I told him I had some from Herb Holtz wandering about the farm. Wilbur said, "Let's see if you can find a good one." I went through the birds, and picked out a trio.These birds were very show worn,having been on the fair circuit for months, but the type and coloring were there.. Wilbur was surprised I found the good 'uns., so he took me through three other breeds, and asked me to pick out birds .I can remember those breeds...Cornish, Moderns, and Cochins. I knew nothing about them, but at the end, Wilbur told me I was "dangerous"! Greatest compliment I've ever gotten from a master. This started a 40 year friendship with Wilbur and Doris.. I still miss him., especially when I go down a row of birds I know very little about, but think I see the good ones. Sometimes they win, sometimes not.