Bob Blosl's Heritage Large Fowl Thread

[MagicChicken]

Thanks. The test-cross for foot color is an excellent idea. Will keep an eye out for some appropriate hens for test-crossing. I could use some more hens in the laying flock anyway. Might as well be something I can use to test-cross with. Was hoping to fill the laying ranks with extra pullets from this batch of chicks, but the numbers didn't work in my favor.

Sarah

i only raised Java's for a short time so am no expert... but ill speak to what i know from chicken breeding in general... if there is 2 birds in there that have yellow showing they pro all carry it... it can be really hard to pull yellow legs out of white legged birds... in my white Emps last year the adult flock was 50% yellow and 50% white legged and i hatched 95% white legs so i decided to cull down to only the yellow legged birds... this year with a yellow legged male and 3 yellow legged hens i am still only getting 50% yellow legged offspring... so if you insist on keeping his line pure i would find a bird with yellow legs that is totally different (like a white leghorn) to use in test matings... only cull roosters that have a bad fault and keep say 10 to use... breed one at a time to some white leghorn hens and hatch say 15 chicks... u can normally tell white from yellow within a week or 2... if they all have white legs cull the male if there is some white and some yellow than he can be kept for use... only do single matings your 1st year and hatch about 20 chicks from each male over each hen... i would shoot for 1 keeper male for each female to give you the most diversity u can get... keep very good records of what chicks came from what parents and then evaluate them accordingly...

if you know that all your males and all your females are at least carrying yellow than u should be able to keep it going in the line while u build the barn...

on the smaller females i don't think u will see there full size potential until at least 9 months so i would not worry about it to much just yet...

 

[bnjrob]

Thanks. I was afraid of that. Now I have a dilemma. Either give up on keeping this line pure, or try to find a large Urch line female of good type. Unless it comes directly from Mr. Urch I won't really know if it's an Urch line bird. Will start looking around. In the meantime, maybe one of the two birds I'm not sure about will turn out to be a pullet. They're both larger than the known pullets. It will be interesting to see how small they really are once they grow out. Maybe they will surprise me.

They've got to get through the summer first. Vigor is top priority for this year's culling decisions. Several birds were panting the other day when temps hit the low 90's. That doesn't bode well for summer, when it's routinely up around 110 for weeks on end. So we'll see what's left of this flock when temps start cooling down again in the fall. By which time they'll be 9-10 months old and I'll have a better idea what they look like.

Sarah

My first thought about the small females is whether or not they are by themselves - if they are being kept with other birds, particularly males. I have seen that by removing males from the pullet pen, the pullets were able to start eating more as well as not get harassed and run to death by males ready to mate before the pullets were.

My second thought was about your feed and the protein content. Currently I'm keeping ours on quail/turkey "chick" starter, even as adults, because it is the only thing that I have found so far in my area that is affordable yet has a higher level of protein than flock/layer feed.

Another thought about size is that from my research, I found anecdotes that small size has been a problem for a while in Javas because there were so few people keeping them and breeding them to SOP after the industrialization of the poultry business around the turn of the 20th century. But you've only got 4 month old chickens and that really is pretty young to see what they will turn out like after they are a year old. I know some Java breeders have discussed that their birds really look their best after they are a couple of years old.

Our Javas yellow foot color, and shank color, improved as they aged, so I wouldn't worry so much about that right now. If you can't keep all the cockerels until they are at least a year, I would say to wait as long as you can and then cull for size and type, not worrying about the leg color so much yet.

As I understand it, the lighter eyed Javas are carrying the Mottled gene. I think it was Walt or Bob that mentioned at one time that in overall points for SOP, eye color wasn't a huge point issue and to worry more about size and type than eye color.

As far as your crowhead concerns, I'd wait a while to worry about it. Some of our Javas seemed to take a bit to grow into looking like they have a good head on them. There were some that looked more like vultures than chickens but they looked better the older they got.

These guys really do seem to get better as they age. It's just a matter of being patient with these slow maturing birds. Of course when you have a ton of males, it can be difficult to be patient. At least they make decent eating if you need to thin the herd o' birds

For the heat, the first part of summer heat with temps in the 90s seems to be the worst. But once they get acclimated, even the 100+ temps aren't as bad. Just have to watch them close now while they are still getting used to it. The males especially will probably grow combs a lot bigger than they should normally have - in talking with other people, it seems like those of us with Javas in the south end up with big-combed males compared to "yankee" Javas that don't see our high summer temps.

 

[MagicChicken]

Quote:
Interesting thoughts about the food availability for the pullets affecting size. I haven't noticed them getting pushed out of the way. I will watch for that. At the moment I do not have separate pullet housing available. More construction is planned but it will be a couple of months before it is built. If I separate the pullets from the cockerels I will have to put them in with the laying hens, and the laying hens are way more aggressive than the cockerels at this point. The pullets need to mature a lot more before I can move them in with the hens. I was actually thinking of moving the pullets and one of the biggest cockerels in with the laying hens in a few months, hoping the cockerel would keep the hens from being overly aggressive with the pullets, and also hoping the older hens would teach the cockerel some manners with the ladies. We will see.

I was feeding the Javas chick starter/grower with 22% protein until they were nine or ten weeks old, when I switched them to a 17% finisher pellet. They get free-choice feed. I have wondered about the protein levels. They seem to be doing ok on the pellets and I haven't noticed any unusual feather-picking or other behavior since the switch.

These pullets seemed small even when they were baby chicks. I think they're just on the dainty side. They are all healthy so I don't plan to cull any. I can watch what they do as they mature. If I don't use them for breeding they will become part of the laying flock. Who knows? They may mature to near standard size. Only time will tell.

I usually let them all out to free-range during the day. The pullets have plenty of room to get away from the cockerels if they want to. But the Javas mostly hang out under the bushes all day. Together. Watching the laying hens forage. Foraging seems to be a learned skill. Hope these Javas actually learn it some day.

Sarah

 

[thedragonlady]

Interesting thoughts about the food availability for the pullets affecting size. I haven't noticed them getting pushed out of the way. I will watch for that. At the moment I do not have separate pullet housing available. More construction is planned but it will be a couple of months before it is built. If I separate the pullets from the cockerels I will have to put them in with the laying hens, and the laying hens are way more aggressive than the cockerels at this point. The pullets need to mature a lot more before I can move them in with the hens. I was actually thinking of moving the pullets and one of the biggest cockerels in with the laying hens in a few months, hoping the cockerel would keep the hens from being overly aggressive with the pullets, and also hoping the older hens would teach the cockerel some manners with the ladies. We will see.

I was feeding the Javas chick starter/grower with 22% protein until they were nine or ten weeks old, when I switched them to a 17% finisher pellet. They get free-choice feed. I have wondered about the protein levels. They seem to be doing ok on the pellets and I haven't noticed any unusual feather-picking or other behavior since the switch.

These pullets seemed small even when they were baby chicks. I think they're just on the dainty side. They are all healthy so I don't plan to cull any. I can watch what they do as they mature. If I don't use them for breeding they will become part of the laying flock. Who knows? They may mature to near standard size. Only time will tell.

I usually let them all out to free-range during the day. The pullets have plenty of room to get away from the cockerels if they want to. But the Javas mostly hang out under the bushes all day. Together. Watching the laying hens forage. Foraging seems to be a learned skill. Hope these Javas actually learn it some day.

Sarah

If you will partition off a small pen in your hen run for the youngsters with a door opening only they can go through, you will see much better growth in your younger birds.Put their feed and water in there, and leave them in there for a few days for the hens to get used to them. Once the youngsters realize they are safe in there, you can crack the door for them to come and go.This reduces stress considerably, as the juveniles don't have to fight for feed, and get chased off by the hens.

I've gotten much improved size in my Orps by feeding soaked rolled oats, BOSS, scratch, and Calf Manna, as an addition to their starter.I simply mix up a scoop of each, and soak the grains and CM for 12 hours.The whole grains have given my birds much greater body size , and overall size, and condition. The CM supplies a lot of vitamins and minerals for growth too. Soak some of these grains, and watch the birds go for them.

The bird on my avatar is a 5 month old pullet in lay. The proof of the pudding.

 

[Gallusfarm]

These pullets seemed small even when they were baby chicks. I think they're just on the dainty side. They are all healthy so I don't plan to cull any. I can watch what they do as they mature. If I don't use them for breeding they will become part of the laying flock. Who knows? They may mature to near standard size. Only time will tell.

Sarah


Originally Posted by Yard full o' rocks
I can't specifically speak to Javas, BUT, I can say that in my Rocks, if I use an undersized female it hurts me tremendously.

I agree with Yard... I wonder if the pullets were hatched from pullet eggs as opposed to larger eggs from hens. From what I've seen, it seems like chicks from hens are more robust from hatch and I can still see the difference as adults.... Those from pullets are usually a little "runty". Anyone have thoughts on this?

Can anyone provide insight on the idea that color comes from the male and type/size from the female? I'm sure it's been discussed before, wondering if this is something that is valid. If this is the case, then in the example Sarah is giving, she'd want to find the biggest hen she can and go from there. I'm having a size issues with my Spanish, as was told that to get the size up, if I could only choose between a new (heavier) male or female, bring in the new hen.

 

[3riverschick]

I agree with Yard... I wonder if the pullets were hatched from pullet eggs as opposed to larger eggs from hens. From what I've seen, it seems like chicks from hens are more robust from hatch and I can still see the difference as adults.... Those from pullets are usually a little "runty". Anyone have thoughts on this?

Hi,
Poultry lit from the first part of the last cetury supports this view...with some naysayers.
Search Google Books with : "breeding from pullets" : and there are a of of interestings articles.
Best,
Karen

 

[Robert Blosl]

In regards to the Black Java males. The Urch Line is most likely the line 90 percent of the folks have out there as there where not many who had them a few years ago when the craz stated in Javas. I think there is a Mr. Ward who has the nicest males I have seen so keep him in mind for the future.

If you have say ten males the same age. Get you some leg bands that you can read the numbers easy from a distance. I use white in black letters.

Look at the birds as if you only have one minute to keep four birds and then they all disiper.

Surely, there is one male that dominates your eye. He has vigor's , robust , big, has that Java trait you would love to see in all your birds down the road. Grab him and put him in a pen or house, go back out and look again. You may see another bird that catches your eye. He may have a great head, nice points on his comb you would love for all your males to have a head like his some day. Put him in the pen. Then look some more, you may have a male that has a little of both of the first two males, not as good as number one or two but kind of has all the good traits his size is good not a runt or small in size. Put him in the pen.

Now sit down and relax. What do you have left, you have three good males. You only need one good one or a second for a spare.

You watch two males fighing and playing around with each other over on the right. Then you see three males laying down lazy not much peep in them.

You keep looking and you think the male on the right still wants to fight the male on the left and the male on the left looks like he wants to run off. Grab the male on the right and put him in the pen. Now you got the four best males. Get rid of the others don't look back you got enough seed there in the top males to keep you going for years. If you have two more males farm them out to some one as pets and come back in a year and see how they look.

In the females look for size, feather development, look for the girls who start to get red in the comb first then of course who starts laying first latter on.
'
Again you only need one good one to get ten good ones next year. Your are breeding for quality to improve the family line not numbers. You may have two or three that fit this and by the fall you will have looked at enough pictures of a true to type Java and you will know what you are looking for.

Now in the Winter you have your number one male he still is the top one the first one you picked. Put him in pen one with three females. Hatch early and then half way through the season take him out rest the hens for a week and put in male number two. Toe punch the chicks with a hole on the right outside right toe. That will tell you these are his chicks. If you want to go another method split the season up with three males the third males chicks will have a toe punch in the left outside toe. Now you have three batches of chicks from your three best females with three different males. Raise the chicks up and do this all over again next year you will be smarter next year with some more experience that you have learned.

Does this method sound good to you? That's what I am doing with my Mottle Javas. One male with three females old old old hens. and then splint the next two month with male two till end of May..

My first chick is a monster chick. Don't know what it will be but my gut tells me I will breed from this bird or farm him out to one of my two buddy partners I have recruited.

You and I are kind of in the same boat with Javas. We don't know much about them. Heck I never saw one till Jan in my life. But I have to roll up my sleeves and reproduce this old line and get these rare strain birds in the hands of Java Club members. Then I know this old line will be mixed in with the others which we think originated from my old line 15 years ago.

Be patient and if you are not sure with a bird keep him for a month and study him or farm him out.

http://www.javabreedersofamerica.com/

Go to this site and print you some of the black and white pictures and put them in a frame.

This is the look you want your males to try to have or as close to this as you can. Join this group of Java breeders. They will help you
and then one day you will help others.

 

[bnjrob]

I agree with Yard... I wonder if the pullets were hatched from pullet eggs as opposed to larger eggs from hens. From what I've seen, it seems like chicks from hens are more robust from hatch and I can still see the difference as adults.... Those from pullets are usually a little "runty". Anyone have thoughts on this?

Can anyone provide insight on the idea that color comes from the male and type/size from the female? I'm sure it's been discussed before, wondering if this is something that is valid. If this is the case, then in the example Sarah is giving, she'd want to find the biggest hen she can and go from there. I'm having a size issues with my Spanish, as was told that to get the size up, if I could only choose between a new (heavier) male or female, bring in the new hen.

We've hatched some from pullets and so far, are not seeing any runtiness in the hatched chicks. But we have not hatched any small pullet eggs either. I've weighed every egg and only large eggs or good solid mediums/upper range of medium wts have been used.

I know I have seen a few things that say yes for hatching pullet eggs and no for hatching pullet eggs so I'm guessing that the issue of breeding from pullet eggs is one of those typical poultry things where there is multiple trains of thought as to what is right.

 

[BarnGoddess01]

Quote:
I'm sure I'm not the most experienced hatcher here but I am accumulating some experience. I am not a fan of hatching from pullet eggs. I find the chicks are not as strong constitutionally. I have more issues with curled toes and weak legs. Runts, for sure. Some do seem to grow and catch up but not that many. Chicks hatched from the same girls months later are MUCH superior. So I've concluded hatching from pullets is a bad idea. Not much of value to be gained except knowing they're fertile.

I am also finding that mom gives type and size, skin colour, voice, and temperament. Dad gives the head and feather colour. Combs and egg colour seem to be a blend.

 

[Lotsapaints]

I prefer hatching from 2+ year old hens increases vigor as any weak ones will have been culled and by that age they have molted so I can tell what color faults they have. I do hatch from year old birds testing that helps me figure out matings since I do mostly single mating or "pedigree" I want to know who's the daddy and who's the mommy as that helps with the culling.