Bob Blosl's Heritage Large Fowl Thread

[gjensen]

I do not have a lot of experience, but what little I have seen, makes me think that it is not that simple. Size for example. It is not like that there is a single gene for large size. It seams to be any number of genes. Some of which might be sex linked. I think that these ideas come from different individual's experiences with their birds and their traits. I do not think there is a rule that works for all. In some cases a particular male seams to contribute size to his offspring, where it might be the female in another individual or strain. I wish it was that simple. A beginner like me would have an easier start. I do know that with some of my plants, one of the parents consistantly passes on a particular trait no matter what it was crossed with.
I also bred extremes in a couple cases this year. Didn't help. I just saw both extremes pop up randomly in different offspring. I think the compensation idea is better served when it is thought of as not fixing a particular fault by mating two birds with the same fault. I do not think one fault can fix another fault. Maybe it makes some sense when you are dealing with a compilation of genes. This is just a conclusion that I have come to. Maybe I will be at a different conclusion next year. Often what I knew yesterday is different than what I know now.
Bob, it is obvious that you like your birds. I have picked up quite a bit by reading your posts. Maybe it is like randomly planting seeds. Who knows where they might pop up or not. I imagine that this bird hobby of mine is like gardening for me. I have a lot of failures, but I keep doing it. I must like it. I would guess that I will be keeping them ten/twenty years from now. Hopefully I will not screw up what I have in the mean time. I would hate to have to start over, but I would if I had to.

 

[cgmccary]

Quote:
My thoughts exactly. People will call me and want to buy some Buckeyes from me. Some tell me that they do not want my culls. I always tell them that some of my culls are a whole lot better than the birds I started with (which, btw, I was pleased and proud to have). I tell them there are no perfect birds. Some only want to buy hens and have no roosters so I always tell them that I would ONLY sell them cull hens -- why waste good breeder stock on someone only wanting hens to look at? Most are not really serious about it & it just goes to what bnjrob says above (AND I DON'T TAKE THEM SERIOUSLY EITHER -- ). I will help out a fellow breeder who needs some breeder birds to improve something or is experimenting with some strain crossing but other than that, I am not going out of my way to sell or give away birds, eggs, chicks. We eat the culls here.

Another thing, being a preservationist does not always mean you keep the best of the best but instead, that you keep the best from each family group. Also, breeding isn't necessarily about pairing up the correct birds but instead, it is about maintaining sufficient genetic diversity in your flock so to be able to work with your line & not losing the good traits you already have. The strength of any breeding line is maintaining genetic diversity within it.

Good conversation here.

 

[Arielle]

Chris-- I would take your culls!


I'm still new to chickens. I've had birds for only a year. I've learned the difference between hatchery and heritage lines. And while I understand the value of the pretty different colored layers that can be had from the hatcheries ( and I am stereotyping here, as some hatcheries apparently do have decent lines) To find truely good old heritage birds has been an eye opener. Still lots to learn. I'm at that hump where frustration rules due to the lack of my knowledge.

I started reading a book on the sussex published in 1920 and feel totally inadequate to own such a nice bird if I could even find one. I have a pair, that were sold to me as ok quality. I have since come to appreciate how few are left. Sigh.

I'm still at the point of figuring out if just one breed would suit my families needs. But which one? I don't know the answer yet. It is really hard to know the adaptaions of each old heritage breed. I will start at the beginning of the thread and look for answers.

 

[7961]

Bob, please hang in there. There are those of us younger breeders who need people like you. Isn't that what you are lamenting? I started raising Andalusians 8 years ago and have never looked back. I have NO ONE to counsel me on this particular breed. I've done a lot of research, mostly for health benefits and some breeding tactics as well as things to look for in a great layer breed. I know you don't raise Andalusians but rather rocks and reds and things like that which are more plenteous and therefore if I was to raise those birds instead, I'd have more help. I tried to get started in rose combed red bantams but I just couldn't grasp the whole idea with the under color/smut and black tail feathers all the way to the skin. I still have a few of those hanging around because I just love them. Don't know why I couldn't get it. Andalusians are my first love (in the chicken realm) and I can't image not having them and working to improve them for the rest of my life. They are apparently more difficult but I'm succeeding. I've seen great improvement in my stock from when I started. I guess I would call myself a Preservationist. In order to have some kind of genetic diversity I have to get birds from wherever I can when I need an infusion of new blood because they are just so very rare. Getting an Andalusian without Minorca blood is a challenge too!

I've had people come to me too wanting some of my "really nice birds" but they don't want to pay for that really nice bird, nor do I want to give it away. They think that $5 or $10 for a CHICKEN is more than enough! I have dedicated almost every waking moment of my life for the last 8 years to improving this breed. I think that is worth more than $5 or $10. People that have gotten some of my birds... maybe they don't think about it but they never have tried to contact me for help in breeding and what to look for. So, I don't think it is just that the breeders don't want to help but maybe the people getting into the breed don't think they need help... I mean, how hard can it be? You put a nice looking rooster with a nice looking hen or six and they do it all, we just reap the benefits, right? WRONG. Also, I have never seen Andalusians shown by those who have gotten birds from me with the exception of two people. I guess people think they are pretty birds and think they really would like to have some but don't realize that you have to work with them, just a little bit, to keep them calm. I don't know, just guessing that this is the reason I have seen a rooster from a pair I sold to someone, in the sales room the following year. It made me pretty mad! Some people have been amazed at how calm my birds are when they're supposed to be "flighty." Well B.S. to that! I don't like it when birds jump through the roof just because I walked by and so I work with my birds often. By the way, NONE of my birds have ever been THAT flighty! By "work" I just mean that I am around them so they are accustomed to someone being close by. I don't handle them any more than I need to but I don't think they are terrified of me.

We do need you Bob.

In fact, I was going to ask you something in regard to the feather width/quality.

I have a little pullet I was looking over just the other day. She has fantastic width of feather but she's not much to look at. She's still very young and I know she'll never be much to look at but in the interest of increasing laying capacity I know I should probaby wait to determine her capacity and type and all that. I have no idea if she was one who feathered out first or not. I wasn't looking for it at that time. You said in another post that width of feather determines egg laying capacity. I think I might hang onto her just to see how that goes. Of course I don't trap nest to see who lays what/when and all that when they're not in breeding pens. Maybe that would be a good idea? Do you have information on how many trap nests I would need for 20-30 hens? I am not able to breed masses of chicks, nor have I come to the point where I have two or three perfect birds and I can cull all the rest. I keep many to choose from because they all have something that the male I plan to cross her with needs what she has, or visa versa.

Are you just talking about stepping back from helping people looking for heritage birds? I hope you don't step back too far. I really appreciate your wisdom which you so generously share.

Have you ever contacted Airling Gunderson he has raised Andalusions for a long time? His name and info is in the judges section of the Poultry Press. Just thought it may help.

 

[Arielle]

I dont know where you heard this from or read some where. I show my breeders if they are show able. Sometimes culls mated to culls make great show birds. Its called compensating matings.

In regards to the order of egg laying, type color meat vigor. It is not a big deal. Remember, I raise advanced large fowl American class birds. They are not barn yard type chickens that are coming up from the dark ages. They came from old strains in Calif over 50 years old and a Rhode Island Red lady from Georgia 100 years ago. Many of you want breeds that are so breed down that it will take ten to twenty years to get up to the level that I am talking about. Many want colors and breeds of chickens I have never seen or know who has them. If they are rare its because they are to hard to breed and no buddy wants to fool with them. It seems at least 80 percent of the people that contact me what these kind of endangered large fowl. So many better breeds need help to keep them going. But it goes back to those pictures in the catalogs that turns people on to these breeds.

In regards to what a male does or a female does one Colombian Plymouth Rock breeder wrote in his article in one of my early issues of the Plymouth Rock Monthly the male has more influence for color and the female has more for shape or type. I have always felt in Reds its a 50 50 issue. Some males or females can stamp their traits better than others. High prepotency is the key. In regards to chart breeding I have never interviewed master breeders who have used them or read of the great ones that wrote about how they did it. Its interesting conversation. I still like my two methods and I am going to use them.

Now why dont people show thier breeders. Some fear they will be stolen. Some fear they will get sick by the scrubs that are shown at the shows that are across from thier good birds. Some breeders are not show birds they have major faults but mated to the right females will produce good birds. I show my breeders in one day shows. I hate fairs its so stress full on the birds for a whole week. One friend shows his birds then sells them and does not bring them home. I really dont enjoy showing some judges really get under my skin as they will place birds with cull type over birds that have the correct type. I ask myself why? It seems many judges judge on what the majorty of the birds look like. If they look like plymouth rocks in type and thier are 80 in the show the twenty that look like Rhode Island Reds dont win. Cost a lot of money to go to a show. I dont need a judge to tell me what birds I need for my breeding pens. However, I would enjoy a judge like Bill or Walt to handle my birds. These judges know there stuff. I am cranky, I have two teeth that need to be pulled and if I sound like a snob forgive me. I will be better next week.

I got a very disturbing email from a father of two children the other day who wants to break into showing his chickens but the folks that he goes to the shows with are not very eager for him and his girls to show or will not help them. I had to step back a few feet and think about this. It is hard and I think the people who show have had so many people come in who pooped out in two to three years and give up they have lost interest in helping them.

You wonder what could be done to help these souls. I know the members of the Rhode Island Red Club and the Plymouth Rock Fanciers club would help these people. Just a thought.

I think some times we need to try to help you beginners on just the basics and just hope you hang in there long enough to learn how to get there and if you show you have to understand there are people out there with 20 to 30 years of experience who will beat you. You got to learn how to be like them.

Just ask yourself how many people do you know that has been in this hobby for ten to twenty years. I can count them on one hand. Not many. Of all the people I have tried to help or people be for me we are lucky to have one or two in 20 years to make it.

We just got to keep on trying. I hope to meet a fellow tonight at my home who I think has the right stuff. I will do everything I can to help him be a success.

bob
I for one appreciate your enthusiasm. I have read your posts on other threads, and you have convinced my why the old lines are valuable. Iam at the point that I am realizing I know so little about breeding chickens that I'm not sure that I can breed a breed correctly. THere is too much I don't know.

I had an uncle who bred racing pigeons for many years; he started at 15, I think, and still had birds til the day he died. Aparently great birds, that won plenty of races and paid for all their feed. I wish he was still here to talk to, but pigeons aren't chickens. I do know he didn't mess around with treating a sick bird, it was immediately culled, and gone.

I'm new enough that I am struggling with what is the best bird for my purposes. I let my SS free range in on the second day my nice big hen became coyote dinner. Maybe Ss won't survive here; maybe someone needs to tell me how to better provide for these birds. I have other breeds that have been free ranging for 9 months and only lost a few. A "lost" hen showed up with chicks at one point.

After reading more of THe Sussex Fowl, I can see where the purpose of the chicken has changed. More people are adding chickens for fun and as pets. THe long ago breeders produced hundreds if not a thousand in a season to send for fattening, keeping back the best as breeding stock. My family cannot eat a thousand in a year. That means I cannot make much progress restoring a SS from a hatchery into the big bird ir was in the 1920's. I did buy the SS from the hatchery to test it out as a layer; and that is what the hatchery SS have become, layers. From what I have read so far, they were mainly table fowl. I like the personality of the SS, but I'm still not sure they are suitable for my farm.

I purposely came looking for this thread because you are here BOb, and I see a few others that I also could learn from. You convinced me BOb, that the heritage birds are better than the hatchery birds.

 

[bnjrob]

I'm new enough that I am struggling with what is the best bird for my purposes. I let my SS free range in on the second day my nice big hen became coyote dinner. Maybe Ss won't survive here; maybe someone needs to tell me how to better provide for these birds. I have other breeds that have been free ranging for 9 months and only lost a few. A "lost" hen showed up with chicks at one point.

Have you thought about chicken tractors? While I would love to let our chickens roam around all the time, I'm not running a buffet for coyotes with rare birds as the main course. The coyotes here come very close to the house and are not afraid of our large dogs at all - hence the chicken tractors from day one. We are just starting out this year after finally finding someone that had some Javas we could get. Our Javas are doing well in the tractors, no fighting, no cannabalism, no feather plucking. If I have time in the evenings or mornings when it is cooler, I will take a chair outside and let them roam around while I can watch them. But most of the time they are in the tractor and quite content to be there.

 

[Arielle]

Quote: That sounds like a great idea. Yes our coyote are regulars; they live here too and I would like to have a method to keep these chickens safe. I can see a tractor handling a breeding trio.

 

[Lacy Blues]

Have you ever contacted Airling Gunderson he has raised Andalusions for a long time? His name and info is in the judges section of the Poultry Press. Just thought it may help.

Thank you. Butch uses Minorcas in his breeding program and though I'm sure he has nice birds, I'd rather work with what I have to increase size, even though it may take longer. I appreciate your input though.

 

[ashandvine]

We eat the culls here.

Another thing, being a preservationist does not always mean you keep the best of the best but instead, that you keep the best from each family group. Also, breeding isn't necessarily about pairing up the correct birds but instead, it is about maintaining sufficient genetic diversity in your flock so to be able to work with your line & not losing the good traits you already have. The strength of any breeding line is maintaining genetic diversity within it.

Good conversation here.

Work is work no matter where you find it, and sometimes fun is work too.

Thank you cgmccary for saying the above. Again, I go in threads in byc and feel like people are putting diamond collars on their chickens, not remembering they are chickens. I am all about the interesting breeds and pretty birds and all that but in the end they are food producers for me as well as a biological lesson I figure will take me a few years to really learn anything about. I appreciate that you said something about genetic diversity. I need to learn a lot about this and how to maintain a flock, not just one or two pretty birds. How many of you use small pairings for offspring, say, one cock to 1-4 hens? I, too, can not raise so many birds or afford to feed so many that I have enough here to match what used to be done. I do need to steal an earlier idea for the dog though.

 

[HallFamilyFarm]

Quote: Butch is also the VP of the APA. His info is at http://www.amerpoultryassn.com/distdirectors.htm