Bob Blosl's Heritage Large Fowl Thread

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I was asking because I have been talking to Walt about raising cornish as a possible breed. SO hopefully everyone will understand.Cornish are a heritage breed, or at least some are.
I'm old but pretty new to breeding pure bred, heritage poultry. I have chosen to breed large fowl Cornish after first buying them to try as cross in my blue/green egg laying, dual purpose bird project.

I followed the advice of an old timer and keep them on grass so as to keep live breeding ability high, and have had no problems with fertility. The cocks and cockerels have even been able to live breed the narrow bodied Ameraucanas. They are not suited well to pasture range, and their slowness makes them a target to predators. I've found that covered, movable pens backed with electric fencing to keep predators from burrowing in or reaching through the fencing to be an absolute necessity.

Low hatch rates have been a problem though, and I suspicion that the shape of the eggs, which often lack a pointy end, is playing a part in this. Too many chicks die right at hatch day without even pipping internally, and some have pipped towards the middle of the egg and then drowned. Low egg counts coupled with poor hatch rates can really slow progress in building a flock.

One really big problem is just finding quality large fowl Cornish; too many have crossed them with hatchery type or other breeds in an attempt to increase their numbers. There are also many trying to pass off these crossbreds or those originating from hatchery stock [which are crossbred in my opinion] as the real thing. There is the added problem of those that cross varieties, so the WLRs and Darks sometimes lack the genetics to produce proper patterns or color.


A young WC cock I was told is from pure Herring stock.






A DC cockerel.

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A pen of mostly white chicks I bred from the WC cock, those with dark leaking being from DC pullets. I was surprised to find that WC cock has one copy of dominant white.

 
Depends on the breed and who you talk to, I my self like to keep growing birds on a feed from 15 to 18% protein but never over 18% protein.

Chris

I agree. I have found that if it's over 18% it force growth too quickly and I end up with abnormalities.
 
I have looked for information on breeding and there isn't much in the way of outlining how to breed. I read P1, F1, F2 etc, and looked in the forums here without finding much so I want to ask a similar question to what was asked about the Cornish... and maybe its another secret. I have a 'project' in mind, which is really just me trying to breed current stock back to the contributing breeds that created it so as to get back to some earlier standards of size. I'll just say it: I'm kind of hung up on this Houdan thing. I got some. They were not quite crap but really close. So, I have gotten rid of them and slowly maneuvered myself to find Dorkings and Anconas. I am going to bring the Dorkings here for other reasons, but while they are here the idea of trying to breed Houdans, Mottled if I can, back to what Mr. Walt L showed me and what I found here: http://www.nehbc.org/images/gallery_french.jpg is tempting (and probably too ambitious, I know). I can't stop thinking about it though. I have never done anything like this. Crosses happen for fun, purposeful breeding for good stock... but this feels like trying to learn chemistry without the books.
Question is: what can I do/go/read to learn which is the cock and which the hen for the first P1, P2, and then some. I am assuming that the Ancona will come in later in the game when type/size has been established because they are for 'color' but please tell me if I am wrong. I have a cock I could get for free, or he's soup, and a hen for 20$ who is under 2 years. If I should go to another thread, please, excuse me.
I copied this off another thread. Dr. Bramwell of the University of Arkansas has been working on this breed for several years after starting with hatchery stock. Apparently he is making progress. In my opinion, if someone is part way there, why reinvent the wheel?


The UA Houdans etc are available from many on the Arkansas Folks Speak Up thread on BYC. There are also a few over in Oklahoma that have received his eggs. Anyone can get them, with a priority for youth. He does not ship. So you must arrange for picking them up.

Many folks got to meet Dr. Bramwell at Crossroads. He is also on the board of the
Heritage Poultry Conservancy.
 
I agree. I have found that if it's over 18% it force growth too quickly and I end up with abnormalities.
I have read so much about % of protein I don't know what to believe about it anymore. I also agree with what Chris said....it all depends on who you talk to and if it's a full moon or not on the day you talk. The most interesting thing that I read and it would take me some time to go back and find it was that it was better to give to much than to little.

Another thing that I found to be interesting was all the variable involved. In other words, let say you feed 16% and you free range your birds. How long, where you are located, time of day, time allowed out to free range, the time of the season and on and on and on all has to be considered in order to get an accurate account of protein taken in for that particular day and that particular bird. In my mind it's basically impossible to do. There are just so many variables I don't really know how anyone could say for sure what their bird was eating unless your bird was in a controlled environment. With that said and I am by no means an expert on the subject, my males and chicks are all on a feed with 26% protein. They are not allowed to free range at all. My laying pullets and hens are on a 16% layer feed and free range a couple hours each afternoon weather permitting. The also get sun flower seeds for a snack. I was on a 20% feed across the board and started changing things up about 6 weeks ago. So I can't tell you that I have or have not had any problems but based on what I have read and after talking to a few different people about this....this is where I'm at right now.

Chris
 
I have read so much about % of protein I don't know what to believe about it anymore. I also agree with what Chris said....it all depends on who you talk to and if it's a full moon or not on the day you talk. The most interesting thing that I read and it would take me some time to go back and find it was that it was better to give to much than to little.

Another thing that I found to be interesting was all the variable involved. In other words, let say you feed 16% and you free range your birds. How long, where you are located, time of day, time allowed out to free range, the time of the season and on and on and on all has to be considered in order to get an accurate account of protein taken in for that particular day and that particular bird. In my mind it's basically impossible to do. There are just so many variables I don't really know how anyone could say for sure what their bird was eating unless your bird was in a controlled environment. With that said and I am by no means an expert on the subject, my males and chicks are all on a feed with 26% protein. They are not allowed to free range at all. My laying pullets and hens are on a 16% layer feed and free range a couple hours each afternoon weather permitting. The also get sun flower seeds for a snack. I was on a 20% feed across the board and started changing things up about 6 weeks ago. So I can't tell you that I have or have not had any problems but based on what I have read and after talking to a few different people about this....this is where I'm at right now.

Chris

Why did you make this change? What results were you looking for to raise the protein that much?

I, personally, feed a starter that has 19% (just because that is what is available). When my boys reach a certain age, their legs start to really grow and I keep their food the same but in order to stave off any problems with the hock joints, I provide oyster shell for them. Seems to work.
 
Why did you make this change? What results were you looking for to raise the protein that much?

I, personally, feed a starter that has 19% (just because that is what is available). When my boys reach a certain age, their legs start to really grow and I keep their food the same but in order to stave off any problems with the hock joints, I provide oyster shell for them. Seems to work.
I had a few things in mind.

First I read something Chris wrote about Rooster's not being able to expel all the calcium that is in a layer feed. That got the ball rolling. I then read that roosters need more protein when they are breeding. I had a leg color issue with all my birds and wanted to get the yellow back in them. The feed I was using just was not getting it done. Of coarse I want my chicks to reach their full potential But mostly I want to feed my birds the best feed that I can give/afford to give them. After talking to a few show people and to Purina and to a few others I switched my Cockerels, Roosters and Chicks to the Purina Show Chow and Broiler Complete. So far I like the look of it, I like the smell of it and I have yellow legs once again. I'm going to give it 6 months or so and see if I see anything good or bad with any of my birds then go from there.

Chris

EDIT: In doing my research and uncovering things that I never really considered before like the protein in a worm, or grass hopper. Then taking into account that my boys and chicks are not allowed to free range ever, I decided to pull the trigger and see what happens. I considered cutting the protein to the roosters once they hit 1 year old down to like 20% but again since they don't free range I'm going to let it ride for a while and see how it goes.
 
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These are some very nice White Rock Large Fowl. One thing I noticed about this nice pen of Rocks was the condition or finish. You would not have to give them a bath to show them just put a little Vaseline on the legs and combs and look out. I have a picture of a male I had about ten years ago and this male reminds me of him. I named him Gladiator as he was the meanest fighter I ever raised he killed the best male I ever breed his brother in a fight . I took this picture of him when he was about six months old for his leg color. When I started the legs where creamy white but after selection of darker yellow in five years I got the color I wanted. For the record if you want to learn how to breed, hatch and raise Heritage Large Fowl this is the easy est breed I know of to learn from. Then after you give five years of work on this breed you could move on to Silver Penciled or Colombian Rocks or for any good breed. You have mastered breeding type to a level you can start focusing onto the color pattern. The prettier the color of the chicken the harder it is to breed.

Kathy do you know where your friend got these White Rocks from? I would like to know so I can tell others to get some from this person. bob
Just found out these white rocks came from a breeder named Robert Coutler in Minn who sold a trio to Derick in North Dakota. Jemie from Nebraska famed barred rock breeder who supplied Frank Reese bar reds with so many owns these nice white rock large fowl. I think the story goes he got some or a male from Brian L of the east coast who had the old Shelby Herington line and that is what their make up is. They will have vigor for years and years to come. Bob Colter and I where partners in large fowl white rocks about six years ago. The chicks that I sent him to get started had this male on the bottom in pen one. So when I saw the pictures I thought of old Gladiator the mean male that would beat up any chicken on the place. His blood still goes on.

So happy to see nice Heritage White Rocks the are true to breed and will make a great start for a beginner who wants to learn how to breed for type. They lay well and of course loaded with meat. That's Dual Purpose to the max.
 
Greetings! Somewhere I missed the memo. Can someone catch me up on "UA Houdans"??!! I'm very interested. Probably (almost definitely) not to own--too many hands in too many pots--but I have an affection for the breed, and I'd love to know of a strong flock with promise.
 
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